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Hi Michelle,

Thank you very much for that information.

Regards Emily x

Hi Michelle,

Thank you very much for that information.

Regards Emily x

Hi Michelle,

Thank you very much for that information.

Regards Emily x

Jill

Here is your George's father William this was the nearest census to George's marriage.

1871 England Census
about William Warner
Name: William Warner
Age: 46
Estimated birth year: abt 1825
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Mary
Gender: Male
Where born: Stratford, Essex, England
Civil parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew Denmark Hill
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Kennington Second
ED, institution, or vessel: 24
Household schedule number: 202
Household Members: Name Age
William Warner 46
Mary Warner 46
Henry Warner 16
Emma Warner 13
Walter Warner 12

1871 England Census
about Mary Warner
Name: Mary Warner
Age: 46
Estimated birth year: abt 1825
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: William
Gender: Female
Where born: Clapham, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew Denmark Hill
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Kennington Second
ED, institution, or vessel: 24
Household schedule number: 202
Household Members: Name Age
William Warner 46
Mary Warner 46
Henry Warner 16
Emma Warner 13
Walter Warner 12

1871 England Census
about Henry Warner
Name: Henry Warner
Age: 16
Estimated birth year: abt 1855
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Male
Where born: Camberwell, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew Denmark Hill
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Kennington Second
ED, institution, or vessel: 24
Household schedule number: 202
Household Members: Name Age
William Warner 46
Mary Warner 46
Henry Warner 16
Emma Warner 13
Walter Warner 12

1871 England Census
about Emma Warner
Name: Emma Warner
Age: 13
Estimated birth year: abt 1858
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Female
Where born: Camberwell, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew Denmark Hill
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Kennington Second
ED, institution, or vessel: 24
Household schedule number: 202
Household Members: Name Age
William Warner 46
Mary Warner 46
Henry Warner 16
Emma Warner 13
Walter Warner 12

1871 England Census
about Walter Warner
Name: Walter Warner
Age: 12
Estimated birth year: abt 1859
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Male
Where born: Camberwell, Surrey, England
Civil parish: Lambeth
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew Denmark Hill
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Kennington Second
ED, institution, or vessel: 24
Household schedule number: 202
Household Members: Name Age
William Warner 46
Mary Warner 46
Henry Warner 16
Emma Warner 13
Walter Warner 12

William a Painter
Henry a Errand Boy

Address 14 The Retreat Camberwell Green

Here is your George on the 1851 showing he is from this family...i believe this was the family i thought it was the other week.

1851 England Census
about George Warner
Name: George Warner
Age: 2
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Mary A
Gender: Male
Where born: Camberwell, Surrey, England

Civil parish: Camberwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Camberwell
Sub-registration district: St George
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 64
Household Members: Name Age
William Warner 25
Mary A Warner 25
George Warner 2
Thomas Warner 10 Mo

William was a Groom at this point

Address 8 Halstead Place

Will see what i can find for the birth now.Do remember though birth registration was not compulsory until 1876

Jill

This looks like a good possible birth for George

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about George Warner
Name: George Warner
Year of Registration: 1848
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Camberwell
County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 4
Page: 70 (click to see others on page)

This is based on the 1851 and also 1881 i have seen which both state born 1848/9 Camberwell

Good luck let me know how it all goes

hi michelle
did you have any luck finding william lancaster birth/marriage r joseph???/

Sheena

I will get back to yours.Gill's lookup request was requested intially a few days ago and before yours was...i have been working on Gills for a few weeks and her certs have now arrived hence why i was finishing it off.Will look this eve at yours.
Your patience is appreciated, i wish i could spend more time on here but i work 30 hours a week as a Manager and have 2 kids too,so i am a busy lady.
Michelle :)

no probs i understand il keep checking
ty

Sheena

So far the only possible marriage i can see is in 1866 between William Lancaster and Mary J Cowley in Newcastle

Name Year of Registration Spouse's Surname District County View Image Order Record
View Record
Mary J Cowley 1866 Newcastle Upon Tyne Northumberland, Tyne and Wear

William Lancaster 1866 Newcastle Upon Tyne Northumberland, Tyne and Wear

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1915
about William Lancaster
Name: William Lancaster
Year of Registration: 1866
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Newcastle Upon Tyne
County: Northumberland, Tyne and Wear
Volume: 10b
Page: 3 (click to see others on page)

Will keep looking for any other possibles

thanx michelle seems to be right one thanks
keep up the good work

Nichola

I can't see them sorry on the records. I feel it might be an idea to post your lookup onto the Records Office Board where lots of people can look.It is possible it is heavily mistrainscribed or maybe they were out of the country when the 1901 was taken?
Good luck and don't give up! It maybe possible that this line originates from Scotland or Ireland and maybe why tracing them is becoming difficult? I know Croydon has been listed as place of birth but this maybe where he was for some of his life, and he wasn't actually born there?

Michelle

Thank you Michelle for trying I know that one member of the family was told that their father was from Scotland and he was Robert's brother but again the census said Croydon for them too. So I will carry on looking. Thank you again for help. Nichola

Got some free time tonight if anyone needs brick wall help :)

Hi Michelle, have just been looking at what you have done for people - inbelieveable - and you are very patient!

I have a real brick wall, which I very much hope you can help me with......

My grandmother was extremely seceretive about her life and told my father and his sisters very little about her childhood. There were rumours that she had been in a Catholic orphanage and that her parents had gone to Canada.

Grandmothers birth details:
Name: Marguerita Violet Treeves
Year of Registration: 1907
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Chorlton

County: Lancashire
Volume: 8c
Page: 831

So, what am I trying to find?

I am trying to find my great grandfather who is listed on my grandmother's (Marguerita Violet Treeves) birth certificate as Cecil Treeves, Travelling Salesman. On her wedding certificate from 1927 he is shown as deceased.

As I said earlier it was rumoured that my grandmother lived in an orphange (which she may well have done), although in 1911 I traced her as a nurse child in Chorlton-upon-Medlock (where she was born). Her name was shown as Violet Higgins - her mother was Margaret Higgins.

On the birth certificate, Cecil Treeves and Margaret are shown as married - I can't find a birt certificate. I can't find any trace of a Cecil Treeves.

I think I have traced Margaret Higgins as being born in Manchester in 1887 and who subsequently moved to Canada, where she married. By the way I could not find any trace of a Margaret Treeves other than on my grandmother's birth certificate. So it seems that they were never married.

This is where it gets interesting. I cannot find any trace of a Treeves ever being born or died in Manchester, except my grandmother - was she really the only Treeves ever in Manchester? If you research Treeves they are nearly all in London - so who was Cecil Treeves - seems like an unusual name to chosen if someone was trying to protect their identity. There are relatively few Treeves listed.

As I said, I know very little about my grandmother's early life but there was some talk about her paresnts moving to Canada in Ontario. I did some research and was interested to find a Charles Treeves listed in the Ontario 1911 census as born in England and moving to Canada in 1907 - the year my grandmother was born - he lists his year of birth as Sep 1884 - co-incidence??? He was shown as single and a boarder at this time. I have researched births in the UK around 1884 (in fact I have gone back to 1855 and forward to 1895 and I cannot find any trace of a Cecil or Charles being born in England.

Finally, the only other clue I got was that my grandmother's father may have been from jewish ancestory - actually Sephardim jews, who fled to from Spain - no idea whether this is a red herring or not.

So my mystery is - who was Cecil Treeves?

Can you help?

Many thanks in anticipation.
Steve

Stephen

Can i ask you on the birth certificate what Margaret Higgins was listed as? was she listed as Margaret Treeves formally Higgins? or just as Higgins? I believe like you do that they never married. I also have doubts if Cecil was born in the UK? I am looking for mistranscipt errors to check this though.
You mention being known as Charles? Is this based on the Canadian records you found? A English born Charles Treeves?
Were the witnesses to the 1927 marriage connected to your Grandmother?or just friends?

Michelle

Hi Michelle, many thanks for such a prompt reply. I think I have most of the answers you are looking for as per below. By the way if you are Ancestry I have all the information on there - I am on as Steve Walker. Also, I have given you access to my tree on this site.

1) Can you give me details of the marriage cert of 1927...witness names and any other details.

Married 25 June 1927

William Frederick Walker
Violet treeves (note Margurite



2)You mentioned Margaret going to Canada and marrying...have you any information on this?

Margaret married Omer Langlais on 27th August 1920 in Toronto.

At the time of her marraige she was living at 66 Massey St, Toronto.

It is the correct Margaret Higgins as it shows her mother as Margaret Hennesy and her father as John Higgins.

Omer was from Quebec.

Margaret showed herslf as a spinster - she was 33 years old.


3) The fact that Cecil is listed as a travelling salesman means he could have been born anywhere,so i think it's unlikely he was born in Lancashire and maybe was travelling though?

I agree, Michelle, if he was a Treeves, then he was likely from London (a quick search will show that at that time virtually all Treeves were based in London - most in Brentford). I have been trying to find a connection but nothing so far.


4) Do you have any information on what happened to Margaret once she married in Canada? Any info on her returning to U.K?

No nothing at all and can't find a Canadian death certificate either.


5) Who were the family your Grandmother was with on the 1911?what were their surnames?

My grandmother was listed as Violet Higgins aged 3. She was a nurse child to a Sarah Ann Griffiths, shown as a housekeeper. Also shown living there was Grace Helen Griffiths, her daughter (fur machinist) and another nurse child Andrew Leonard (2 weeks old)

The address was shown as 11 Queen Street, Rusholme, Manchester.

By the way, my grandmother became very good friends with Grace and her sister marie (also shown as Mary in some documents) - Marie became a lifelong friend and Grace who also went to Canada used to correspond and end her letters with "Your big sister Grace" - my father remembers that.


6) The birth cert of 1907 can i have address and all details

Born 8 October 1907 in Chorlton-upon-Medlock, Manchester
Address 67 Higher Temple Street, Chorlton-upon-Medlock, Manchester

Name: Marguerita Violet Treeves

Father: Cecil Treeves, Commercial Traveller
Mother: Margaret Treeves, formerly Higgins

Informant - M Treeves, 67 Higher Temple Street, Chorlton-upon-Medlock, Manchester

Registered on 18 November 1907.


So, hopefully, that's everything - please let me know if you want to know anymore.

Many thanks again.

Yours Steve

Stephen

I have just started to look on the records. I am a little confused regarding the connection to Charles you state? I understand you saw him on the Canadian records and he was listed as born in England.There are births around this time for Treves under Charles Henry. These were in London area and with 1 e in Treves. Why do you feel that Charles and Cecil are the same person?

Michelle

Hi Michelle, it's probably a red herring but I was trying to find a Cecil Treeves who had emigrated to Canada and the only Treeves I could find was Charles, who had gone out there the same year as my grandmother was born - I just wondered whther either he or Margaret Higgins had changed his name from Cecil to/from Charles.

Rgds Steve

Stephen

Going to have a break now,been looking for a few hours and 100%(ish) certain that there is no Cecil Treeves born in England. I think it is very possible that Cecil was a middle name or even a made up name?I am also wondering that as he was a traveller that he had come from another country and was travelling to Lancashire and met Margaret. The fact she lists herself as a Spinster at the marriage in Canada makes me feel that she never married "Cecil" and i wonder if he was even around at the time of the birth. From the info i have had from you seems that Margaret registered the birth. Child born out of wedlock was then put into a home and fostered (in the loose term in those days) to the family you saw her with on the 1911.
As i am sure you have researched nurse children were quite often unwanted or illegitimate children. Taken into a home and paid a little money in some cases for looking after this child.I have through my research seen nurse children taken into the house of a man who had the child with his lover and his poor wife had to take it on! All very sad really, so poor Violet.
I will look more tomorrow.

Michelle

Many thanks, Michelle. I hadn't thought about the traveller thing - certainly worth following up. I agree with you that Cecil (whoever he was) and Margaret were never married.

Looking forward to hearing if you come up with anything more.

Best Rgds Steve