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Ah yes, Blackwell was the one I'd figured her for; still have the FreeBMD results open. ;)


Marriages Sep 1905
> Blackwell Florence W.Ham 4a 45
DAVISON Margaret Hannah W. Ham 4a 45
> HACKETT William W. Ham 4a 45
NITSCH Constantine W. Ham 4a 45


... Doesn't seem to do me much good, just collecting the facts, ma'am! Figure of speech. ;)

and he is still not to be found in 1911,checked all possibilities now i think and the likliest ones are married or single not widowed and are not dock labs.
how far from florence would he have gone on the eve of his wedding i keep asking myself

Perhaps ... he was in the pub all night and didn't *sleep* anywhere, hence got omitted altogether!

Or he was on a train to Scotland ...

Bear with me on another chase.


1901:

Name: John Gardner
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation: Brother-in-law
Gender: Male
Where born: North Woolwich, Essex, England
Occupation: General Labourer

Civil Parish: West Ham

Alfred T Hughes 35
> Charlotte M Hughes 35
Charlotte H Hughes 11
Alfred G Hughes 10
> John Gardner 23


Marriages Jun 1888
GARDENER Charlotte Maria Woolwich 1d 1509
Hughes Thomas Alfred Woolwich 1d 1509


1871:

Name: Charlotte Garduno
[Charlotte Gardener]
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: George
Where born: Woolwich, Kent, England

Town: North Woolwich

George Garduno 29
> Charlotte Garduno 29
Henrietta Garduno 6
> Charlotte Garduno 4
Georgiana E Garduno 2
William C Garduno 9 months

Correction notes at Ancestry, 2005:

Surname: Gardener
Correction Type: Transcription Error
Explanation: Ancestor


1881 in East Ham (Charlotte Jr. is a servant in East Ham in 1881):

James Kilfoyle 37 - Packer, born Middlesex [I can't read it]
Charlotte Gardener 40 - "Wife" per Ancestry, but actually Ditto to "Head", Wid, Tailoress, born Gravesend
William Gardener 11
George Kilfoyle 7
> John Kilfoyle 4
Minnie Kilfoyle 3
Christopher Kilfoyle 1
Charles Shepherd 46
John Smith 30
Mary Smith 32


Births Sep 1877
Kilfoyle John W. Ham 4a 36


Just another wild theory ...

----------------------------------------------------------

Leaving that aside.

Name: Jane Susan Gardner
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Year of Registration: 1907
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 25
District: Romford
County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 275

Marriages Dec 1907
GARDNER John W. Ham 4a 546
MARTIN Jane Susan W. Ham 4a 546
READ Ada Fanny W. Ham 4a 546
(groom missing from page)


-- How's that for first marriage and first wife's death?

And there is still always the possibility of this one in 1891 (which would make it no wonder a birth couldn't be found!):

Name: John Gardner
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1881
Relation: Foster Child (Child)
Where born: Cyprus

Name: William Gardner
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884
Relation: Foster Child (Child)
Where born: Woolwich, Kent, England

Civil Parish: Roding Beauchamp


Both are "Boarder from West Ham Union".

i have just got this next little peice of info from my great uncle of 93
he cant remember the names of the 2 brothers but he says he was told by his dad many times that they were footballers, whether top flight or not he cant remember
now i have checked the 1911 for footballers
and this is what i get and all spelt gardner and down as pros
david 1873 b glasgow lanark<<<a pro at 38
andrew 1886 airdrie lanark
albert edward 1888 birmingham
no footballers under any other spelling

carrie

1901, a John Garden and a John Gardner born in Scotland around the right time, in the London area, both drapers. One John Gardner crew on vessel, Chatham Dockyard.

What about the marriage I posted then?

ah yes the marriage
florence blackwell and william hackett marriage her father was james a soldier if i remember right
florence hackett nee blackwell and john gardiner her father was william a guardsman?
she couldnt decide on her fathers name apparently but thats another story
will get the info out on that one tomorrow

have found a john gardfner[mistranscribed] born 1879 b st george in the east london on 1901 as crew on illustrious ,,,
downloaded from nat archives and not mine

Noooo ... this marriage.


Marriages Dec 1907
GARDNER John W. Ham 4a 546
MARTIN Jane Susan W. Ham 4a 546
READ Ada Fanny W. Ham 4a 546
(groom missing from page)

Name: Jane Susan Gardner
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Year of Registration: 1907
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
Age at Death: 25
District: Romford
County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 275

That death is the same quarter as the marriage, and Jane is the rightish age for being John's first wife.

sorry evie must have missed it in all the info no i havent got it
it will be sent for

the marriage cert has been sent for
no luck in locating that cypriot born john in 1901 so going to try 1911 now and still searching for the two football playing possible brothers with no first names on google but not getting anywhere with that either at the mo

now much as I would like to help!!!! I am totally useless at anything past 1900!!! EvieBeavie is the whizzkid at this - and most other things as far as I can tell!!

Ann XX

Well EvieBeavie you have come up trumps!!
I sent for the John Gardner & Jane Susan Martin marriage cert you suggested & blow me - its the right one!!!!!!
We have John Gardner aged 27, a dock labourer with dad James a sailor (deceased) - all correct!
They were living at 108 Talbot Road, East Ham & witnesses were George William Martin & Susan Cooper (not much help in locating another Gardner family member tho!)

So question is - how do we make this new info work in finding him any further back or indeed on the 1911 census!!??
I will start looking.
Many thanks Evie for suggesting the certificate - I was running out of hope for finding him. Ive contacted the Docklands Musuem as they say they will look up any records they may have if you email them - but 1 week later ive not had a reply but im still hoping they will.

thanks again

& typical - ancestry isn't up & running!!!
The marriage didnt last long did it - married in November & she died in December :(

Hiya -- got your PM, but never worry about things dropping off the first page. When I click My Threads, I see that there is something new in yours since I was last at the site, because it's popped up to at or near the top of my list.

Well, what does that marriage certificate do for you? At least you know that he consistently named the same father! Unlike one of my gr-grfathers ...

And we know that he was in East Ham for a certain period of time, making it more likely he was there in 1901 ...

Let me look back at some details here. Ancestry's down, you say. Hmm ...

I guess I managed to sleep through Ancestry's outage ... long lie in. ;) But I'm still working on low-speed since my ISP fried my modem this week, and dial-up is not conducive to speedy searching at Ancestry, even with adblock and noscript and all ...

What was Jane Martin's father's name? Just to see where she was in 1901.


Seems to me at this point you have little option but to start ordering birth certs ...

Since we can't find John in a census with father James, we have to consider orphans -- and also Johns in households with mothers where father isn't present, if father was indeed a sailor.

And also the possibility that John's father may well have been James, a sailor -- just not James Gardner.


Here's a sequence that could be interesting.


1891:

Name: John Gardner
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1881
Relation: Scholar
Where born: N

Name: Florence Kate Gardner
Age: 14
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1877
Relation: Scholar
Where born: N

Civil Parish: Wanstead
County/Island: Essex
Registration district: West Ham
Sub registration district: Leyton


1881:

Name: Annie Gardner
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849
Relation: Wife (Head)
Where born: Benthnal Gn, Middlesex, England

Albert W. Gardner 11 - born Bethnal Green
Florence Gardner 3 - born Bethnal Green

Civil Parish: West Ham
County/Island: Essex
Street address: 63 Hampton Rd

Annie is shown as Wife, Married. No occupation, no husband present.


1871:

Name: Annie Gardener
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849
Relation: Servant - unmarried
Where born: Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Bethnal Green
Town: London
County/Island: London
Registration district: Bethnal Green
Sub registration district: Hackney Road


Annie could be the one shown as born 1843 in Bethnal Green in 1861 - servant, in Stepney.

But there's no matching Annie Gard*r in 1851. So Gardner could be a married surname.


Downloading images on dial-up ...


Births Sep 1871
Gardner Albert William Bethnal Green 1c 222

There's an AWG birth in Bethnal Green in 1869 as well.

Births Sep 1878
Gardner Florence Bethnal Green 1c 175

Births Jun 1881
GARDNER John Thomas Bethnal Green 1c 171

No John Gard*ner born around then in West Ham, where the household was in 1881.


Here's a possibility. Lots of docks in Poplar. (My gr-grfather with the variable fathers was working on them in 1871.) Marriage same quarter as that Albert birth.

Marriages Sep 1871
> GARDINER James Poplar 1c 1201
NASH Martha Mary Poplar 1c 1201
Webb William James Poplar 1c 1201
> Woodward Annie Poplar 1c 1201


1861:

Name: Annie Woodward
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1848
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: London, England
Civil Parish: St Marylebone


That one isn't in the 1871. Could be the Annie Gardener. If she was pregnant at the 1871 census, she might have been calling herself Gardner.


There are several James Gard*er-s born 1840-1850 on vessels in 1871.


James Gardener abt 1844 Hythe, Kent, England Captain Main Top (Captain) Vessels, Royal Navy

James Gardner abt 1841 Portland Town, London, England Chief Mate (Head) Vessels, Cornwall

James Gardner abt 1847 Purbrook, Hampshire, England Carpenters Crew (Crew) Vessels, Royal Navy

James Gardner abt 1845 London, Middlesex, England Capklt Sld (I can't read it) Vessels, Royal Navy - single


And here's a possibly interesting one in 1881:

Name: James Gardner
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1849
>> Where born: Lanarkshire, Scotland
Civil Parish: Vessels
County/Island: Lancashire
Street address: "Fire King"
>> Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: 1st Engineer
Registration district: Liverpool


and another in 1881:

Name: James Gardner
Age: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
>> Where born: Colchester, Essex, England
Civil Parish: Vessels
County/Island: Kent
Street address: "Rowena"
>> Condition as to marriage: Widow
Occupation: Master Of Rowena
Registration district: Sheppey


For some reason I have looked at these two people on the ship previously:

Wm. Coward 55
George Coward 13

Are there Cowards in your tale? -- oh no, that's right, they're on a different vessel, Ancestry has just mashed them together.



These are all just veg for the pot. All I can think of is to pick the possible Johns and James-s and track them back and forth through the census, and see whether anyone stands out.

If you want to spend money, once you have some strong possibles, you could start doing things like seeing whether the James who married Annie Woodward was a sailor, or who the father of Albert W Gardner was ...

For the moment, I've had enough of trying to download images on low-speed! ;)

But ... here's another interesting one in 1871:


Name: Jame Gardiner
[James Gardiner]
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Relation: Lodger -- also says Son in Law
Spouse's Name: Susan
>> Where born: Dundee, Scotland
Civil Parish: St Saviour
Town: Dartmouth
County/Island: Devon
Registration district: Totnes
>> Occupation: Seaman - Mate

Name: Susan Gardiner
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1843
Relation: Lodger Wife (Lodger's Wife)
Spouse's Name: Jame
Where born: Brixham, Devon, England

Joseph Hill 77
Ann M Franks 22
William Franks 6
Jame Gardiner 32
Susan Gardiner 28
James Gardiner 3
Charles Gardiner 1 month


His name has been corrected:

Given Name: James
Correction Type: Transcription Error
Explanation: It is clearly "JAMES" and not "JAME"
Contributed By: callistemon
Contributed On: 09/02/2008

The Ancestry user can be contacted (s/he is in Australia and it says s/he has been on the site in the last week). Gardiner doesn't show as one of the surnames s/he is researching.

Births Mar 1871
Gardiner Charles Totnes 5b 186

Births Mar 1868
GARDINER James Totnes 5b 179

Can't find a James Gard*er + Susan (Hill or not) marriage in Devon. (But if these happened to be yours, we might be cousins! The real father of that gr-grfather was a Hill from Devon ... as was half the population of Devon. ;) )


But there's a possible birth to go with:

Births Mar 1882
Gardener John Henry K Totnes 5b 179


But sigh, this looks like that one in 1901:

Name: John H ??Dnes
[John H Gardner]
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1882
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Edward
Mother's Name: Sarah J
Where born: Brixham, Devon, England

Surname: Gardner
Correction Type: Transcription Error
Explanation: From the transcription, surname should read Gardner
Contributed By: Mollyannabythesea
Contributed On: 22/02/2006


Finding, ruling out ...

What I can't find is that James and Susan after 1871.

wow thanks - I have an early night & come back to find all these, brilliant. I will give searching for John & James another go as things crop up out of the blue, but yes if he's a sailor then probably wont be there.
Despite John keeping the same age throughout all this theres not much I can find with him born in march/april 1880 which is what we worked him out to be, also its interesting that he's still not putting down a middle name which I take it to mean he really didnt have one.

As for his 1st wife - here is what i found on her yesterday:

Jane Susan Martin - born March 1882 in Romford Essex
mum is Ann Martin (previously Freebody) born 1853 Barking Essex
dad is John James Martin - who isnt down as deceased on the marriage cert but apparently is according to the 1891 census (possible death 1887) he was a dock labourer.

1881: John & Ann Martin living Nelson St Barking town

1891: Ann Martin (nurse & widow) living with her brother William Freebody & his family.
Anns children are Jane 9 & George 7 (George is a marriage witness for Jane)
All living 11 Barking Place Barking Essex

1901: Looks like Jane is a servant (cook) at 57 Cranbrook Park ilford Essex for a Silversmith & his family
Ann & George are still with the Freebody's in Barking

Now ive searched the different census district numbers for John living nearby & think I also did the whole of ilford & Barking for him. Also searched 108 Talbot Road & its census district to see if anyone was nearby (their address at marriage)

I'll continue looking today
thanks again!!

still looking!!
How hard must it be to find 3 brothers (John & 2 others) that all work on the docks!!!