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My 4x great grandad in proving to be a pain in the posterior as I cannot seem to find any information about him at all.
If there is anyone who could search for a Thomas Clements b around 1800 in Lambeth,Surrey/Greater London as I have hit a complete and utter brick wall.
Thankyou
Nicola

Nicola

What information are you looking for - his baptism details or census info?

What information do you have on him so far? Do you have any names of children? Wife? Where were they were living when married etc? Occupation?

The more you can give us the easier it will be to do searches.

You obviously must have some info in order to have gone back to your 4x grt grandad - I'm presuming you have details of at least one of his children?

Regards - Athena

I would like to find out where he was born and his date of birth as it is only guesswork that we presumed he was born the turn of the century.
Thomas is down on the 1841 census as aged 40 and living with his wife Lucy and 2 children Thomas and Mary ann. His occupation on his son Johns marriage certificate in 1845 had him down as a fishmonger.
I do not know where they were living when they got married, as I do not know when they were married. I can only guess it was before 1834, the date of birth of their first child.
On the 1841 census, it has Thomas,Lucy and kids lliving in Camberwell, but no address.
I believe that Thomas was married twice, first to Johns mother, who I have absolutely no info about and then to Lucy, but I may be wrong.
John was born 1825, somewhere in lambeth, london as my grandad said that all his family came from the area.
John married Elizabeth Burley in 1845 and had several children.
John died on 18/12/1874 aged 48 years.
I hope this is a bit detailed and helpful.
Thanks

Nicola....... Have you found thomas on any census after 1841?.......... the details of that could help pinpoint his occupation and place of birth, he may even have a sister/brother or parent living with him, all these things help build up a better picture, and will assist in locating his birth and marriages. Were there children born after 1837? if so their birth certs. will confirm mothers maiden name.

Nicky

For reference.....1841


Thomas Clements
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1801
Gender: Male
Where born: Surrey, England

Civil Parish: St Giles Camberwell
Hundred: Brixton (Eastern Division)
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation: View Image

Registration district: Camberwell
Sub registration district: Camberwell
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Clements 40
Thomas Clements 7
Lucy Clements 40
Mary Ann Clements 5

Address looks like Edward Street? not sure of occupation, dosn`t look like fishmonger to me.

Nicky

Thanks, Nicola - that's excellent - much more to go on now. Will have a little poke around and get back to you if I find anything useful.

Athena

could this possibly be the 2 children Thomas and Mary Ann in 1881?.....


Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
Mary A. HILLIER Head W Female 45 St Giles, Middlesex, England Milk Dealer
Thomas CLEMENTS Brother W Male 47 St Giles, Middlesex, England Labourer


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Dwelling 124 Waterloo Street
Census Place Camberwell, Surrey, England
Family History Library Film 1341156
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0671 / 67
Page Number 69


Nicky

A possible marriage if the census above is them....

Marriages Dec 1868 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clements Mary Ann Newington 1d 309
Hillier John Newington 1d 309
White Annie Kathleen Newington 1d 309
Wilkinson Ebenezer Newington 1d 309

Nicky

Mary Hillier's occupation ties in with Thomas's in 1841 - Milkman.

There is this Mary Ann Clements in 1851; mother's name Lucy; father is James BUT 1841 doesn't give relationships. James is a cowkeeper:

1851 England Census
about Mary Ann Clements
Name: Mary Ann Clements
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1835
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: James
Mother's Name: Lucy
Gender: Female
Where born: St Giles, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Camberwell
Ecclesiastical parish: Emmanuel
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Registration district: Camberwell
Sub registration district: Dulwich
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 174
Household Members: Name Age
James Clements 59
Lucy Clements 52
Mary Ann Clements 16

Edit:

Maybe not, Lucy gives POB as Neath, Wales but says born in county in 1841

Potty - that's the family that I have been following through the census records - kept coming back to them time and again, going round in circles LOL

I was wondering if perhaps Thomas bc1800 had changed his name to James OR if Thomas had died and Lucy then married or lived as wife with a brother of Thomas (a James)?

Here's what I have:

1851 - same as above

1861 living in Camberwell

James 62, head, b Bucks, cowkeeper
Lucy 65, wife, b Wales
Mary Ann, dau, 25 b St Giles
Thomas, grandson, 6 b Camberwell

Possible death entries:

James Clements bc1800 - died 1868 Camberwell

Lucy Clements bc1794 - died 1871 Camberwell

Regards- Athena

Thanks Nicky.
Yes, your right with your information about Mary ann and brother Thomas. We knew she married a John Hillier and that she did something related to a dairy.Thankyou for confirming that.

NB - Potty - when I looked at the 1841 I thought it said that Lucy was not born in county - will double check but I'm sure that it looked as though a "No" had been written in the box (possibly on top of a Y)and there is a line crossed through in the box next to it.

Also, it's a bit of a coincidence that in 1841 the family are in St Giles district which is where the Mary Ann on the above records was born.

NICOLA - I think it might be a good idea to send for the marriage cert of Mary Ann Clements that has been found above - to see if she ties in with your research (interesting to see if her father is noted as a James or Thomas).

Athena

Athena and Potty..... SNAP..... came up with all the same info as you, bit of a tough one this....and still no more info on Thomas clements c1800...... Surrey is not good for parish records transcription, I have a lot from the same area, and locating baptism records is very difficult, have had a look at the IGI but can`t come up with anything likely.
Prehaps the witnesss on Johns Marriage cert. in 1845 may be of help., Wonder if Nicola has located him in 1841..... may be more clues there.


Nicky

Nicola..... Do you know who thomas junior married? do you have him on census after his marriage? all this info will help piece the family together, and maybe lead to Thomas c1800.


Nicky

Think this may be Thomas junior in 1871.....


Thomas Clements
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1832
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah
Gender: Male
Where born: St Giles; London, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Camberwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation: Labourer.....{same as 1881}

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: Camberwell
Sub registration district: St George
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 343
Household Members: Name Age
Adelaide Clements 10
Anne Clements 1
Eliza Clements 3
James Clements 6
Sarah Clements 38
Thomas Clements 39




Possible marriage for the above ?

.Marriages Jun 1854 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clements Thomas Newington 1d 229
MOTTERSHAW Mary Ann Newington 1d 229
Perrin Sarah Newington 1d 229
Taylor James William Newington 1d 229


This Marriage would fit in with the grandson Thomas in 1861 with Mary Ann...

Nicky

Hi - well I've been going along the lines that James Clements was either Thomas who changed his name or a brother - and therefore, if James states being born in Bucks, that's where I've been searching.

Came up with all of this from the IGI:

JAMES Clements b 24 Sept 1802 chr 24 Oct 1802, Hedgerley, BUCKS.
Father: THOMAS CLEMENTS
Mother: Sarah

I then searched for a marriage of Thomas and Sarah:

Thomas Clements to Sarah Nash
5 Feb 1784 Buckingham

Searched on all children born to above couple. These are the baptisms:

Hannah 1786
Nancy 1787
Susanna 1789
Sarah 1792
John 1794
William 1797
Mary 1799
Elisabeth 1805

These were all baptised in Hedgerley Bucks.

But there were also two baptisms with parents of same names not in Bucks:

Thomas Clements Nov 1792 St James Westminster
Sarah Clements Apr 1794 St James Westminster

So that has confused me a bit. Could Thomas and Sarah senior have travelled to Westminster to baptise these two children perhaps? But why? Apart from the fact these are the two named after the parents maybe...

Unless it was two separate families... very confusing, eh?

I'll see if I can find a death entry for a Thomas Clements in Surrey prior to 1851...

Athena

Also been routeing around the IGI Athena..... saw your family, but working on the Bucks theme as well came up with this.... only one I could find with brothers Thomas and James...


Clements, British Isles
Father: John , Mother: Mary
Exact Spelling: Off
Batch Number: C391374
[refine search]
Prepare selected records for download

International Genealogical Index / British Isles - 5
Select records to download - (50 maximum)
1. Ann - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 08 MAR 1801 Edlesborough, Buckingham, England

2. James - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 26 DEC 1799 Edlesborough, Buckingham, England

3. John - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 02 APR 1797 Edlesborough, Buckingham, England

4. William - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 03 APR 1795 Edlesborough, Buckingham, England

5. Thomas - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 17 JUL 1803 Edlesborough, Buckingham, England

Notice James is about 4 years older than Thomas.....that also ties in with census info.if Lucy took up with james after Thomas.

Nicky

Athena

Been having lunch! re born in county in the 1841 - I couldn't make up my mind about that either.
The enumerator isn't consistent with his writing - sometimes it's "yes", sometimes a small y and sometimes a y with a bigger tail! One thing that strikes me as strange - everyone on that page was born in county. You usually get one or two on a page who weren't.

Potty...... thats the problem with the 1841, its so unreliable..... too many red herrings, and not enough info, ssssoooooooooo frustrating lol


Nicky

Ok, have checked for deaths of Thomas between 1841-1851 - can't find any in the area they were living in 1841 - I think there was one in Wandsworth. Also checked Buckinghamshire deaths for same years as people often travelled home to birth parish/families when unwell so that they could die in parish of birth. There are three Thomas Clement's listed for 1846, 1848, 1849 in Bucks (two in Headington one in Bicester).

All of this still doesn't explain why, on the marriage cert of 1845 that Nicola has, it says that John's father was Thomas Clements a fishmonger - not James a Cowkeeper.

Going to rest my head for a bit now LOL

Athena

Oh, just seen the new posts above - Nicky, well done, that family seems more likely doesn't it - being that there are both a James and Thomas closer in age.

Athena