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Selena, I think we've cracked it.

1901 census:-

1901 England Census
about Henry Mathews
Name: Henry Mathews
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1885
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: St Lukes, London, England

Civil Parish: West Ham
Ecclesiastical parish: Stratford Marsh Christchurch
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: West Ham
Sub registration district: Stratford
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 7
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Mathews 16
Annie Spillan 46
Henry Spillan 48
Millie Spillan 10
Marion Wall 21
Clara Woods 16
Ada Worman 19


Except, when you go into the actual census record, Henry Spillan is actually Henry Spiller. Seems to be the same one as on the 1861 census with Caroline as a sister, indicating that Richard and Mary Ann were the parents.

So, if this is correct, Caroline's parent's were Richard and Mary Ann and she was born Spiller not Spillers. Henry was her brother, and this is who her son, Henry was living with after her death.

Does this look right?

Joanne.

Could you get the death certificate of 1899 just to see who the informant was? Caroline may have been away visiting relatives or in hospital, nursing home etc.

Just out of interest, have you found Brother Henry on the 1901? Is he with family members, bit of a long shot but worth a try

I would think if she had been married before it would have both that and her maiden name on it.

Clerkenwell would be right for the Holborn area. The two sorta merged later on when my Nanna's birth was registered. I wouldn't let that 's' deter you because names do morph over the years. She may have been born Spiller and as she was growing up her name slowly changed with the added 's' or it was suddenly done (My Hiscox became Hiscocks).

Thank you so much Selena and Christine.

I obtained John Robert Matthews birth certificate in October 2006 and have been searching (with breaks) ever since. I feel that I'm really banging my head against a brick wall on this one.

Now that I have Henry's birth certificate, one of the things that is puzzling me is that Caroline's former name is spelt with an 's' at the end on them both. Spillers seems such an uncommon name, and therefore, I did think that it may have been misspelt on John's certificate, but it's the same on Henry's.

I'm really wondering now if Spillers was a previous married name, as I suggested before, and that her maiden name was something completely different.

As I said before, I have found a marriage of a James Spillers to a Caroline Sanderson or Saunderson, but she wasn't with him on the census, and I can't seem to follow it through anyhow.

Joanne.

Thanks Christine, this one is really puzzling me - no marriage or death for Caroline!

Possible deaths for Henry, might be interesting to see who the informant was.

Deaths Dec 1888
Matthews Henry 41 Islington 1b 145

Deaths Mar 1890
Matthews Henry 50 Pancras 1b 37
Matthews Henry William 43 St. Saviour 1d 111

Deaths Jun 1890
Matthews Henry 40 Islington 1b 147

I can't find them in 1871, will try again to look for the other Caroline I posted on Page 1 in later years.

Christine

Here's the Clerkenwell Caroline in 1861

1861 England Census
about Caroline Spiller
Name: Caroline Spiller
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Richard
Mother's Name: Mary Ann
Gender: Female
Where born: Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Shoreditch St Leonard
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub registration district: Holywell
ED, institution, or vessel: 13
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 109
Household Members: Name Age
Caroline Spiller 4
Henry Spiller 7
Mary Ann Spiller 44
Richard Spiller 44
Robert Spiller 19
Sarah Spiller 14

Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 230; Folio: 108; Page: 17;

Christine

CLERKENWELL REGISTRATION DISTRICT
Registration County : London.
Created : 1.7.1837 (sometimes "St. James Clerkenwell" in early listings).
Abolished : 2.8.1869 (succeeded by Holborn district).
Sub-districts : Amwell; Goswell Street; Pentonville; St. James.
GRO volumes : III (1837-51); 1b (1852-69).


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ST. LUKE REGISTRATION DISTRICT
Registration County : London.
Created : 1.7.1837 (sometimes "St. Luke Middlesex" in early listings)
Abolished : 2.8.1869 (succeeded by Holborn district).
Sub-districts : City Road; Finsbury; Old Street; Whitecross Street.
GRO volumes : II (1837-51); 1b (1852-69).


Looking at the districts it appears it could be the one in St Lukes.

Christine

Births Dec 1856
Spiller Caroline Augusta St Luke 1b 565

Births Jun 1857
Spiller Caroline Clerkenwell 1b 460

Unfortunately every time I click on District info in FreeBMD, my internet connection freezes and I have to restart PC (now three times).

So can't find out if those areas are correct for Finsbury.

Anyway maybe someone can find Caroline with those parents in 1861 and work forward just in case.

Found a marriage Fred Matthews in 1888 but unlikely.

Marriages Dec 1888

MATTHEWS Frederick George St. Saviour 1d 259
Pickering Joseph St.Saviour 1d 259
SANDERS Caroline St. Saviour 1d 259
WALKER Amy St. Saviour 1d 259


Found and IGI christening as follows:

Caroline Spiller
Birth: 1857 Clerkenwell, London, London, England

Father: Richard Spiller
Mother: Mary Ann Dunkley Twiselton

I can't find Caroline's death registration.

John Robert Matthews WWI pension record shows that he signed up in September 1898. He has his next of kin down as his mother, Caroline Matthews, 9 Hull Street, although I think this should be Hulls Street. This is still in the Holborn area.

The pension records show that Caroline died 31/01/1899, but I can't find any record of this death.

I really am at a total loss now.

I can't find a matching record for a birth of a Caroline Spillers or Spellers, I can't find a marriage of a Caroline Spillers or Spellers to a Henry Matthews, and I can't find a death of a Caroline Matthews J/F/M 1899. Well, I tell a lie. There is a death of a Caroline Matthews in that quarter in Cuckfield, but her estimated birth year is 1849, and I haven't come across any connection with Cuckfield.

Joanne.

Here is the 1891 for ref

1891 England Census
about Caroline Mathews
Name: Caroline Mathews
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Finsbury, London, England

Civil Parish: St Luke
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas
Town: London
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: widow

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Holborn
Sub registration district: Whitecross Street
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Caroline Mathews 37
Henry Mathews 9
John Mathews 12


Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 233; Folio 148; Page 25


Christine

So do you think dad is now definately Henry?

How old is Caroline on the 1891 (sorry I don't have ancestry)?

Have you found Caroline's death registration?

Thank you Selena in SE London.

I have obtained the birth certificate of Henry Matthews, John's brother. It is the one which you suggested.

This birth certificate shows Henry Matthews born 31/03/1883 at 18 Custance Street. Mother Caroline Matthews formerly Spillers or Spellers, although it certainly looks like Spillers on John's birth certificate. Henry's birth certificate shows his father as Henry Matthews a mineral water maker living at the same address as Henry was born at. His father registered the birth.

I'm still no nearer with this as it doesn't give me anything new to go on.

Any ideas?

Joanne.

Yes, Caroline did register the birth herself. She was living at 4 Gastigny Place and has listed the father as Henry Matthews a ginger beer maker.

Joanne.

Thank you.

I have another theory.

I am unable to find a birth of a Caroline Spillers, but there is a marriage of a Caroline Sanderson/Saunderson in A/M/J 1877 to a James Spillers.

John Matthews birth certificate shows his mother's name as Caroline Matthews formerly Spillers. Could the formerly part mean that her surname could have previously been Spillers by marriage?

I have found a James Spillers on the 1881 and 1891 census but not a Caroline Spillers.

Does this sound plausable?

Joanne.

Births Jun 1883
MATTHEWS Henry Shoreditch 1c 67

Registration County : London.
Created : 1.7.1837 (sometimes "St. Leonards Shoreditch" in early listings).
Abolished : 1.4.1965 (succeeded by Hackney district).
Sub-districts : Haggerston; Haggerston East; Haggerston West; Holywell; Hoxton New Town; Hoxton Old Town; St. Leonards; Shoreditch; Shoreditch North East; Shoreditch North West; Shoreditch South; Shoreditch South West.
GRO volumes : II (1837-51); 1c (1852-1946); 5D (1946-65).

Thank you.

Yes, the one on the 1861 census is certainly a possibility.

The 1891 census shows he had a brother named Henry, but I don't have his birth certificate.

Joanne.

Did John have any brothers/sisters? If so have you got their birth certificates to see what he says for father?

Could this possibly be Carolines birth reg?

Births Dec 1856 (>99%)

Spiller Caroline Augusta St Luke 1b 565

There is this Caroline in 1861 but it doesn't really help much.

1861 England Census
about Caroline Spiller
Name: Caroline Spiller
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Niece
Gender: Female
Where born: Bermondsey, Surrey, England

Civil Parish: Newington St Mary
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: Newington
Sub registration district: St Peter Walworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 26
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 117
Household Members: Name Age
Mary Bridgens 65
Ann Crocker 51
William Crocker 47
Elizebeth Massengale 26
Caroline Spiller 8
Thomas Swenscomb 24

Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 340; Folio: 121; Page: 24;

William Crocker is the head and Ann his wife.

Christine