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Hi Barry,

Yes, I am here at the minute but it's 'little grand-daughter' day today so I will be more off than on until she goes home!

Is there something I can help you with?

Dea x

Hello Dea,
if your online today could you drop me a line via here or messages,
thanks

Barry

Hello Nerine,
yes that my mum, married my dad on 23/03/1945 Halifax, they divorced in Sept/65. I've not seen her since.

they had 4 boys between 1945 -1956, me being the youngest. have tried to trace her but all leads end up nowhere,

Barry

Births Dec 1920 (>99%)
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MACKAY Sheila Irving Halifax 9a 726

I promise - hands off from now on (unless you need me) - Just wanted to set you on the right track.

I am now 100% certain that this is the right one - with the addresses you have - they all match up with mine.

Best of luck - do let me know how you get on!

Dea x.

P.S. - I think you had best find a 'proper' home for the birth + death cert of Kathleen the Baker's daughter + family !!

Dea x

thanks so much for your help, what is so annoying is that it was in front of my face all the time, but could not see it, and the baker/plasterer thing felt so wrong even though things matched up.

So you think it almost certain that this is the correct kathleen, I suspose it also explain why she only had one child Sheila, my mother. who I'm also trying to trace.

unfortunately i've got to go, but will be back online tomorrow morning, and would be interested to hear anything else you might have, but please leave some work for me :-)

thank so much

Barry x

Re Mary Ellen Gorman - daughter on death cert 1908?

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Marriages Sep 1898

Gorman James Dewsbury 9b 1313
Irving Mary Ellen Dewsbury 9b 1313

This will need more work as she is a little young to be his (married)daughter??

I will work on it!

Dea x

BINGO !!!!!

I KNEW THIS WAS THE ONE !!!!!!!!

Sorry - over-excited there but I DO love it when it all works out !!

My guess about Donald being younger was also correct !! - This is why she dropped a few years off her age, BUT - the one I have matches your addresses so it is obviously the one.

I have made loads of notes - will be happy to help further if you wish.

Dea x

If I understand this correctly, you are saying that the Kathleen on marriage certificate gave the wrong age, where she would have been 36 she gave her age as 27 or 29 (it could be either, as badly written), as Donald was 26 at the time.

Kathleen father was a John Irving and her mother was a Kate Irving (nee Higgins), and John was a plasterer.

On your 13.21hr post you mention Kate Irvene in Victoria Street, I assume that this was Kathleen mother, as Kate is shown at 2 wood Street. But also with Kate (the mother) was a Ethel Irvene (Kathleen sister?)

Now comes the real weird part, on checking the marriage cert of Donald and Kathleen,

Donald address is shown as 2 Wood Street, Haley Hill, Halifax,
And Kathleen Irving address is shown as 18 Victoria Street, Haley Hill, Halifax.

I also have a death certificate for John Irving, which show him as a Married and Outdoor labourer aged 50, died on the 27/march/1908, which matches your john, the informant was a Mary Ellen Gorman, daughter. There is a Mary Ellen Irvene at Victoria Street!

hello Dea, I'm back online but only for a short while, but I think you might be on to something, and I'' explain in a second, but just want to get something sorted first

barry

Hi Barry,

You have to remember that very often people could not read or write and so, whatever they said was written down by someone who didn't know the true details!

IF, I have the correct one - her mother was born and married as Catherine, but always known as Kate on census!

Her daughter seems to have also been born Catherine and known as 'Kate'

Kate can be 'short' for both names and at her marriage she may have given the name Kate? - Sometimes a 'vicar' would refuse to accept a 'shortened' name
and so put down what he thought was the correct version? (I know that my uncle was not allowed to be christened Jack as it was not a 'proper' name and so
had to be christened John but was always 'Jack' !

The fact that her death certificate fits with the 1884 birth AND both the names Catherine and Kathleen are mentioned makes it look even more possible ??

What other details does it give on her death cert? - place of birth/death - informant etc.?

Dea x

O.K.

Get back in touch when you return.

Dea x

Hello Dea,

Sorry have just got back from work,thank for the work you have done, will need to look at it and see where it leads, If she is named as catherinewhy would see call herself Kathleen on the marrige certificate, also the death certificate show Kathleen also know as Catherine, the date on her death cert is 61 that was in march 1946.

I have to go out for a few hour's again, but will be back later.

Thanks,

Barry x

Mind you,

She didn't seem to have lied about her father at marriage but she does appear to have told a 'little porkie' about her age ??

Was Donald perhaps somewhat younger than her ???

Dea x

1871 for John Irving:
John Irving
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1854
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Henry
Mother's Name: Bridget
Gender: Male
Where born: Bradford, Yorkshire, England
Civil Parish: Bradford
Ecclesiastical parish: St Thomas
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England
Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image
Registration district: Bradford
Sub registration district: Bradford West End
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Household schedule number: 110
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Conway 20
Thomas Conway 1
Bridget Irving 50 b Ireland
Henry Irving 50 Glazier - b Ireland
John Irving 17 Plasterer !!!
Margaret Irving 20
Mary Ann Irving 18
Thomas Irving 14
Ellen Webb 30




Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 4466; Folio: 58; Page: 18; GSU roll: 848465.


Dea x

1901:

John is working away in Lincolnshire (still a plasterer) - mar. b Bradford

Kate is at home in Victoria St. North, Halifax with 3 more children:

Kate Irvene
Age: 41
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1860
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Halifax, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: Halifax
Ecclesiastical parish: Haley Hill All Souls
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England



Registration district: Halifax
Sub registration district: Northowram
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 143
Household Members: Name Age

Ethel Irvene 5 months ?? didn't you have an Ethel on the marriage cert ??
Kate Irvene 41
Margaret A Irvene 10
Mary E Irvene 6

Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 4137; Folio: 38; Page: 21.
.....................



We really need to find the 1891 for John + Kate and find out where your grandmother was then but I am pretty certain this is the one you want!

What do you think??

Dea x

1891:

Having problems finding John + Kate at present but have found Mary Higgins who has Bridget Irving with her.
Bridget Irving
Age: 13
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1878
Relation: Grandchild
Gender: Female
Where born: Halifax, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: Halifax
Ecclesiastical parish: St John Baptist
Town: Halifax
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England



Registration district: Halifax
Sub registration district: Halifax
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age

Ellen Conroy 50 lodger

Edwin Ellery 29 .........................
Emma Ellery 29 .......................... - The Ellery's are next household **** - ignore them for now !

Mary Ellery 59 ********* image says Mary Higgins b
Bridget Irving 13 Mary's grand-daughter !

Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 3587; Folio 14; Page 22; GSU roll: 6098697.

.........................
Dea x

In 1875 - there was this marriage:

Marriages Mar 1875

DEWHIRST Sarah Halifax 9a 714
***HIGGINS Catherine Halifax 9a 714
***IRVING John Halifax 9a 714
Rhodes John Halifax 9a 714
............................

1861 - shows a Catherine Higgins, born Bradford with mother Mary ( born Ireland)

Catherine Higgins
Age: 2
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1859
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Mary
Gender: Female
Where born: Bdfd, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: Bradford
Town: Bradford
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England


Registration district: Bradford
Sub registration district: Bradford West End
ED, institution, or vessel: 24
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 15
Household Members: Name Age
Margaret Donnough 46
Mary Donnough 23
Sarah Donnough 7
Bridget Higgins 4
>>>>>>>>>>Catherine Higgins 2 ***
Elen Higgins 21
John Higgins 60
Mary Higgins 37
Mary Higgins 8
Patsey Higgins 4


Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 3325; Folio: 102; Page: 3; GSU roll: 543114.
...............................

1881 - shows John and Catherine (Kate)

NB!! - John is a Plasterer !!!!!!!! - No children with them at present !!

John Irving
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Kate
Gender: Male
Where born: Bradford, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: Halifax
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street address: 1 ? Chapel Fold
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View Image
Occupation: Plasterer

Registration district: Halifax
Sub registration district: Halifax
ED, institution, or vessel: 8
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
John Irving 25
Kate Irving 23


Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 4399; Folio: 133; Page: 17; Line: ; GSU roll: 1342051.
.............

Dea x

Hi,

I too feel very unhappy about this baker/plasterer thing ! -this needs some more work but I will post it as it is
and add the rest of the info I have found later! - I will have to post it in sections as it won't all go in one post !

I do believe you have been following the wrong Kathleen Irving.

My suggestion is that this is the one you want.

Birth:
Births Sep 1883
Irving Catherine Halifax 9a 424 - This date tallies with her death Cert. !!!
........................................

1901:

Kate Irving
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884
Relation: Grandchild
Gender: Female
Where born: Halifax, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: Halifax
Ecclesiastical parish: Haley Hill All Souls
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England



Registration district: Halifax
Sub registration district: Northowram
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 55
Household Members: Name Age
Anostasia Brophy 21 - lodger
Mary Higgins 70 Head - b Ireland
Bridget Irving 21 Grandchild........ all grandchildren born Halifax !!

****Kate Irving 17 grandchild - ........... 'your' grandmother !!!
Thomas Irving 13 grandchild

at 2, Wood Street

Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 4137; Folio: 53; Page: 8.


.....................

Dea x

Where was Donald + his family on 1901 please?

Dea x