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Just a point about your father Peter -

you say he was born 3 May 1910 (and as you have his birth cert, that must be correct) , and his death record in 1992 also gives that DOB.

However, his baptism record (posted earlier by ErikaH) says his birth date was 15th May.

Slightly different DOB again - is this him in 1939? I don't see any other birth of a Peter Logan which could be this man -

Peter Logan
in the 1939 England and Wales Register
Name: Peter Logan
Gender: Male
Marital Status: Single
Birth Date: 18 May 1910
Residence Date: 1939
Address: 12
Residence Place: Chislehurst and Sidcup, Kent, England
Occupation: General Labourer D?? [Ditto - heavy work ]
Line Number: 31
Schedule Number: 43
Sub Schedule Number: 7
Enumeration District: CJQT
Borough: Chislehurst and Sidcup
Registration district: 42/5
Household Members Age
Joseph Luker 53
Ellen B Luker 51
This record is officially closed.
Lucy Luker 25
This record is officially closed.
Walter Hegelton 69
Peter Logan 29
Kaethine Gordon 20

The marriage cert for Francis Paul Logan and Lucy Williams would also be interesting , to see if he is indeed your Francis.

It’s so very sad what happened to the boys. I wonder where their parents were while they were in the workhouse?

It’s unimaginable them being in there alone

Peter’s ‘nearest relative’ was his maternal grandmother - she was at 23 Gomer Street

No such info is recorded for the boy Francis - a different type of document

I’m getting so confused I’m going to write this all out properly on my iPad tomorrow so I can keep up lol

Can you say if Peter and Francis had their grandmother Mary Maguire with them while they were in the workhouse?
What a young life they had. It was said Peter ran away from home and joined the army as a boy soldier lying about his age.
I was told he was in the kings regiment before the war and joined up into the royal artillery in the war.

Deaths Sep 1908 (>99%)
Logan Francis 1 W. Derby 8b 394

Name: Francis Logan
Death Age: 2
Birth Date: abt 1906
Death Date: 1908
Burial Date: 8 Sep 1908
Burial Place: Ford Cemetery, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

.................the death to which I referred earlier

Deaths Dec 1964 (>99%)
LOGAN FRANK 58 LOUGHBORO' 3A 734

Ah so he’s not the right one.

You’re putting in so much effort on this I can’t thank you enough

The mother of the Francis Joseph born 1906 was named Hilliard, and he is with his parents Francis and Elizabeth in 1911.

LOGAN, FRANCIS JOSEPH mmn HILLIARD
GRO Reference: 1906 S Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 124


Franciscus Josephus Logan
in the Liverpool, England, Catholic Baptisms, 1741-1919
Name: Franciscus Josephus Logan
Age: 0
Birth Date: 29 Aug 1906
Baptism Date: 13 Sep 1906
Baptism Place: St Sylvester (Sylvestri), Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father: Francisci Josephik Logan
Mother: Elisabethae Hilliard


He died in 1914.

Francis Joseph Logan
in the Liverpool, England, Catholic Burials, 1813-1985
Name: Francis Joseph Logan
Death Age: 8
Birth Date: abt 1906
Death Date: 1914
Burial Date: 8 Oct 1914
Burial Place: Ford Cemetery, Liverpool, Lancashire, England


There is no birth record for John & Mary's child Francis in 1906.

Yes I noticed there’s just the number 2 where children’s names should be!

On checking John’s medical discharge it has the date 3/12/1917

Their son Michael born 1916 died in the June quarter 1917

So that must leave my father and Francis as the 2 children!

There’s a birth on freebmd

Francis Joseph. Sep qtr. 1906. Liverpool 8b 124

There is no birth record to match the 1906 baptism.

None of John senior's children are listed on his 1917 army record - which might have been helpful.

Yes I have just in case it may be him.

Thank you so much for all your hard work I really do appreciate it

Did you take note of the 1906 baptism of a Francis which I posted?

Sadly no I wasn’t given the names, the lady just said they were different to the first names I gave her!

That is my grandfather Army record, above he had a double hernia and was very deaf from measles as a child.

My grandmother married my grandfather in 1901..My mother who was not from Liverpool met them in 1945/6 around the time she married my father.

I can’t wait to get the birth certificate of Francis born in Blackburn.
Thinking of them being there so far from Liverpool I wondered if any of her brothers may have lived there.

All the children except for Daniel and Thomas were named after her brothers.

Do you have the forenames you were given by the person at the Register Office?

Oh dear…it seems they were in dire straits as a family.

I did say I had them on all census but forgot I was unable to find them on the 1911, l thought it may have been my grandmother being awkward as I believe she hated politics.

There is an 8 year old Francis Logan (R.C) in Liverpool Workhouse in 1914

And a death in 1964 for Frank Logan of an age to fit the DoB on the 1906 baptism record

I’m dubious about the 1912 birth - that mother could have been married more than once.

Knowing the forenames of the parents of that child would be useful.

Hi EikaH
Thank you for your help
I did wonder if it was supposed to read 12 months for young John’s birth.
It does look like a paupers grave, i know they weren’t well off, so sad.

I have my grandfather John Logan’s birth below

Birth March 17 1878
Christening April 16 1878

St Peter & St Nicholas. Liverpool.
Father Daniel
Mother Rebecca

I have all my family back on all the census, births, marriages and deaths, it’s just the elusive Uncle Francis and any family he may have had to be given his place in the family tree

I didn’t know my father Peter spent some of his childhood in the workhouse though I know he was born there, the story goes his mother had lost so many babies that she was to enter the workhouse hospital for his birth.
His birthdate
May 3rd 1910
Death
1992
I do have his birth, marriage and death certificates.

Kind regards

Pam

I think John's age of 12 years in the 1921 census is a mistranscription.

It should be 12 months.
See the address on the burial record below.

LOGAN, JOHN mmn MCGUIRE
GRO Reference: 1920 S Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 82



John Logan
in the England & Wales, Civil Registration Death Index, 1916-2007
Name: John Logan
Death Age: 1
Birth Date: abt 1920
Registration Date: Oct 1921[Nov 1921]
[Dec 1921] Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District: Liverpool
Inferred County: Lancashire
Volume: 8b
Page: 53


John Logan
in the Liverpool, England, Catholic Burials, 1813-1985
Name: John Logan
Death Age: 1
Birth Date: abt 1920
Death Date: 1921
Burial Date: 7 Dec 1921
Burial Place: Ford Cemetery, Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Address: 23 Gomer Street <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Age: 19 months.


He was buried in grave 906, along with (on the same day) John Fredson, aged 22 months.
Looking elsewhere on the burial register, it seems to have been common practice to bury young children in shared graves.
For instance, there were five unrelated children buried in grave 907 - Charles Ellis (23 months), Elizabeth Ann Corcoran (22 months), Thomas Bryan (9 months); William Hetherington (3 years), and John Henry Kent, 7years.

ADDED: Looking further, I see that not only children were buried in grave 907 - so possibly a paupers' grave ??
Others buried there include (in November 1921) Annie Lang (55 yrs) and Timothy Burns (47 yrs).

In grave 906, along with John Logan and John Fredson, there were John McCarthy, aged 74 yrs, and Margaret Dodd (20 yrs) buried in November 1921 - and possibly others, but I haven't searched further.