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Susan
I think I will have to trawl through the Tranters, it looks like my only option at the moment. Funny how the children seem to have been registered as Cooper though..... the mystery deepens!!
Thanks for your help, as I said to Andrew, I would never have worked this one out in a million years.
Cheryl

Possible Tranter/Cooper connection

1861 England Census
about Frederick Tranter
Name: Frederick Tranter
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Eliza
Gender: Male
Where born: Belper, Derbyshire, England

Civil Parish: Belper
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View Image

Registration district: Belper
Sub registration district: Belper
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 112
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Cooper 65 Boarder no relation given
Charles Tranter 10
Eliza Tranter 38
Elizabeth Tranter 5
Frederick Tranter 19
Sarah Tranter 12
William Tranter 45
William Tranter 3

All Nailmakers

Andy

Andy
Its certainly worth a shot isn't it.
Funny how Frederick uses the name Cooper on marriage and birth certs of children and possibly on death too..... very strange.
I am off to bed now as I have to get up at 5 30, will no doubt not get any sleep as I will be trying to work this out!!!
Thanks for helping, I will check back in tomorrow while I am at work.
Cheryl

1851 census

1851 England Census
about Frederick Tranter
Name: Frederick Tranter
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Relation: Son
Father's Name: William
Mother's Name: Eliza
Gender: Male
Where born: Belper, Derbyshire, England

Civil Parish: Belper
Ecclesiastical parish: St Peter
County/Island: Derbyshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Belper
Sub registration district: Duffield
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 33
Household Members: Name Age
Charles Tranter 7 Mo
Eliza Tranter 27
Frederick Tranter 9
Sarah Tranter 3
William Tranter 34


Thomas Cooper is living next door.

Andy

On an Ancestry tree, Frederick Tranter's (b.1842) parents are given as William Tranter (b. 1816) and Elizabeth COOPER (b. 1823). Perhaps he took his mother's maiden name when it suited hm ?? (Think this is the tree you may have been looking at as I saw Wass mentioned. Tree linked to Job Tranter who went to USA. So, may get more info via that researcher)

Also, in 1861 census, a Thomas Cooper was with the Tranters (lodger, aged 65, but could have been a relative).

Anyway, good luck in sorting all this !!

Sue

O.K. - are you ready for a 'biggie' ???

Working from William Tranter and connection to Cooper !

WILLIAM TRONTER (I believe this is your 'William Tranter)
Birth: 09 JAN 1816
Christening: 07 FEB 1816 Independent, Belper And Heage, Derby, England

Parents:
Father: CHARLES TRONTER Family
Mother: MARY
...................................................

1861:

***Thomas Cooper 65
Charles Tranter 10
***Eliza Tranter 38 - 'married to William' !!!!!
Elizabeth Tranter 5
Frederick Tranter 19
Sarah Tranter 12
William Tranter 45
William Tranter 3


Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 2509; Folio: 80; Page: 24; GSU roll: 542981.

...................

Traced back to 1851:

Registration district: Belper
Sub registration district: Belper
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
*********Eliza Cooper 17 .......... I believe this is the one who 'married' William
Henry Cooper 4
Job Cooper 7
Mary Cooper 13
Sarah Cooper 40
********Thomas Cooper 40 .......... Eliza's Father - same Thomas as above !!!
Thomas Cooper 2

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 180; Book: 5; Civil Parish: Duffield; County:
Derbyshire; Enumeration District: 8; Folio: 27; Page: 14; Line: 5; GSU roll: 241287.
.............................

NOW ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Having traced them all backwards and forwards through all census I believe I now know why they were Cooper's on 'official' things but used the name Tranter in their daily life - This is because THEY WERE COOPER's .......

Mummy and Daddy (William and Eliza) were not actually married !!

However, they did put things right before they expired........... would you believe in 1890 ??


Marriages Mar 1890

Cooper Eliza Derby 7b 613
Tranter William Derby 7b 613


........................... How lovely !!! - he would have been in his 70's and her only a few years younger !!

Just in case this was another couple - IGI shows:

Husband
WILLIAM TRANTER
Marriage: 03 MAR 1890 Saint Michael, Derby, Derby, England

Father: CHARLES TRANTER

Wife
ELIZA COOPER
Marriage: 03 MAR 1890 Saint Michael, Derby, Derby, England

Father: THOMAS COOPER Family


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They DO have the correct fathers, - They ARE both still alive on 1891 census !! and I can't find any other couple to fit on 1891!

What do you think - I bet you will have to order that Cert?

Dea x

P.S. - This was rather complicated but I hope I have explained it all above - I do have more 'bits' but will just put this up for now
as it will get too complicated - ask me if there is anything not clear.

Dea Xxx

Hiya Cheryl!
Just spotted this and although i have no info i thought it was a fab story!!!!

Cath xxx

Thank you for those kind words Paula - I just hope I have got everything right !!

I HAVE received a private 'hug' from Cheryl and know she has sent for the cert. - We will just have to wait and see (OOhhh how I HATE that bit !!)
Dea x

Well done Dea!

I tried to find info on the Coopers before I went to work this morning but couldn't find a sausage!

Cheryl: You must come back on here and let us know the outcome!

Barbara x

all this from a request for a maiden name!

Andy

Dear All, especially Dea who has done the most fantastic job!!
I would like to thank you all so much for your help, what started out as a simple requested ballooned into something unbelievable. The story is fantastic I told my mum last night and even she was nearly in tears. Just imagining William & Eliza tottering down the aisle at their age!, I wonder why they left it so long, or why they decided to do it when they did?.
I ordered the cert as soon as Dea gave me the information, both William & Eliza's and Fred and Mary Anne (Wass- who's name started the thread in the first place). I am now like a child waiting for Santa!!!.
As soon as I get the certs I will post a message and let you all know the outcome.
Again Thank you all for the bits of jigsaw, I would never have worked this out by myself.
It just goes to show the power of GR!!!
Cheryl

Oh Gawd !! - Will I be embarassed if I have got any of this wrong !!!!!!!!!!

I will never be able to show my face on here again !

Dea x

Dea is a genius take it from one who knows!!!

Very impressive my little friend .. brought a tear to my eye too... both of them in fact.

Who needs books when we have this! ....

Lorna x

,

Lorna,

You said - "Very impressive my little friend "

How did you know I was 'little' ?? - I am in fact 5' 1" at my tallest stretch and just about 7 stone after a 'big dinner' !!

Tee hee.

Dea x

To all of you who have been following this story.

The certs arrived this morning, yes- Santa came early!.

The marriage of the elusive Frederick Cooper to Mary Wass states, Frederick was 23 at time of marriage, he is a Nailer by trade. It states that he is the illegitamate son of Eliza Cooper, no father mentioned obviously.
Mary is 22 at time of marriage, her father is Samuel Wass, also a Nailer. The wedding took place at Duffield Parish Church, Derby 16/05/1864.
Neither Mary or Frederick can write and mark X. Peter Sowter and Salome Gaunts are witnesses, again they too mark X.

Now for the Biggie!!

William and Eliza's marriage (mother and father of Frederick Cooper). The wedding took place 3/03/1890. I still can't get rid of the image of them tottering up the aisle in their 70's!.
Both are classed as "full age", no wonder really!
William is a "Hawker" by trade, he names his father as Charles Tranter.
Eliza's father is Thomas Cooper, both fathers are Nailers by trade, but neither is classed as deceased at the time of marriage!
A Joseph Bannicliffe and Mary A Hope are witnesses to this bizarre, and well overdue union!.

Dea, you are a marvel!, and everyone else who supplied bits of the jigsaw too. I would never have worked out who was who, or what had happened without you.

I now have lots more information to progress my tree and a lovely story to boot!.

We had a family wedding on Saturday, and this story was the main topic of conversation.

Again "Thank you" all for your time and effort.

For anyone else wondering whether to post a message, my advice is "Go for it", just look at the information I have received from just a simple surname request. The GR community is a mine of information, you really are the best!!!

Lots of love
Cheryl

Yes it IS a lovely story - I am just so very pleased I
didn't get it wrong !

Dea x

Just checked through my notes before I 'rub them out'.

I haven't followed this through but I believe it may be Eliza's parents' wedding

THOMAS COOPER
Marriages:
Spouse: SARAH PEAT Family
Marriage: 04 APR 1823 Duffield, Derby, England

I will leave it with you to explore....

Dea x

Good story indeed. Nice to see everything falling into place from everyones contributions.

Andy

Yes Andy - I think you and I found the 'Wass' and Susan I think found the Tranter conection and it all 'ballooned' from there

Nice to think that we can all work together and achieve something like this.

Well done everyone.

Hope to work together in the future.

Best wishes,

Dea x

As you say, a combination of effort and lateral thinking. Think everyone enjoyed the challenge of this one ! Was pleased to spot the Tranter possibility. A good exercise in expecting the most unexpected, once again !!!

Sue