Find Ancestors

Hi,

Thank you for your replies. I see what you are saying about the Charles Johnson entries in the different census'. I think the only way I'll know Charles' parents will be to request the birth certificate.

That said, I do know that he married Matilda Hill (I've got the certificate) so I am confident that from 1881 onwards the names on the census should be Matilda and Charles with their children.

Will request the birth certificate for 1847 and see whose names appear on it....

Thank you once again for your help - it is appreciated.

Regards

Rachel

Just a note to help or confuse - not sure which. Of full age may not necessarily mean 21 (or whatever the legal marriageable age was at the time). It may mean "with parental permission". They did not always put the age - even with parental permission. Took me a while to unravel this with one of my ancestors until I came across mention of the parental permission thing in a book.

Jill

One last thought for today. If the 1847 registration is the Charles who married Jane; and the 1852 certificate is to William and Margaret (not seen on census, possibly died as a baby?), then the March 1854 certificate might still back up June's Flin/Flynn theory?

All the best

Hi Rachel,

Sorry for the delay. Charles is in the 1851 census - see below plus birth record - but this 1871 entry is a good match (born in Sutton, living on Thatto Heath as in 1861), and the wife and daughter match to a distinct individual in 1881 - so this looks like one to rule out:

1851 census: Name: Charles Johnson
Age: 44
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1807
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Ellen
Gender: Male
Where born: Eccleston, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Sutton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Prescot
Sub-registration district: St Helens
ED, institution, or vessel: 2a

Household schedule number: 114
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Colmson 4 (on second page, transcriber has second thoughts, and decided the family name isn't Johnson!)
Ellen Colmson 14 (niece, on 2nd page)
Louisa Colmson 1 (on second page)
Charles Johnson 44
Edward Johnson 11
Ellen Johnson 39
John Johnson 14
Thomas Johnson 21

Name: Charles Johnson
Year of Registration: 1847
Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar
District: Prescot
County: Lancashire
Volume: 20
Page: _[79]1

1871:Name: Charles Johnson
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Jane
Gender: Male
Where born: Sutton, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Sutton
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Town: Thatto Heath
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Prescot
Sub-registration district: St Helens
ED, institution, or vessel: 31

Household schedule number: 155
Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Johnson 24
Eleanor Johnson 2 weeks
Jane Johnson 24

1881 census: Name: Charles Johnson
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Jane
Gender: Male
Where born: St Helens, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Sutton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address: No 47 Rockfield View
Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: Coal Miner

Registration district: Prescot
Sub-registration district: St Helens
ED, institution, or vessel: 33

Household Members:
Name Age
Charles Johnson 34
Edith Ellen Johnson 6
Elenor Johnson 10
Florence Johnson 4
James Alfred Johnson 7
Jane Johnson 34

Hi Ivy,

That certainly looks like the family. I like the name Emptey House age 11 though!

Did you manage to see if Charles is in the 1851 census? I see that you mention there being a record for Charles Johnson 1847 - do you know the birth ref please?

HI Rachel,

This looks like the same family in 1841 - with that well-known individual Emptey House (aged 11 lol)

Name: Edward Johnson
Age: 1
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Gender: Male
Where born: Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Prescot
Hundred: West Derby
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Prescot
Sub-registration district: St Helen

Household Members:
Name Age
Margart Durdam 12
Emptey House 11
Charles Johnson 34 Coal miner
Edward Johnson 1
Ellen Johnson 30
Ellen Johnson 4 (Listed after Robert, so poss niece)
John Johnson 4
Robert Johnson 29 Coal miner (listed after the main family, so poss brother)
Thomas Johnson 11

Hi Ivy,

Have been thinking - the sons John, Edward and Charles could be those of Ellen and Charles. Runnington is Ellens' maiden name, so I think Martha Runnington is Charles' mother-in-law.

Not sure whose child Charles aged 1 is, but I suspect it could be a grandson or a nephew.

- one more thing:

1861 family:

Perhaps a late marriage for the parents

- could be Charles 56
sons John 23 and Edward 21

- Ellen 49
son Charles 14

whose is Charles age 1?

who is Martha Runington age 72?

1851:

1807/22/42

Will have a think on the way home.

Hi Rachel,

Just quickly (on my way home any minute now):

1861 census CJ's in Prescot reg district state born:
Rainford/Eccleston/Sutton/Prescot

1805/1823/1842/1847/1858/1860

Will do likewise for 1851

Hi Ivy,

The certificate which came today was for the 1852 birth. The 1861 census shows Charles approximate year of birth as being 1852. I wonder if Charles is on the 1851 census with his parents Charles & Ellen?

Hi Rachel,

If Charles was born in the Prescot district, and if his birth was registered, then given that he is a little vague about age, it is worth considering how the birth registrations tie up to the census info.

Between 1840 and 1860 there were 6 registrations of Charles Johnson in Prescot:
Dec 41
Mar 47 (prob to match the one you mention as recorded on 1861 census)
Jun 52
Mar 54
Mar 58 and
Sep 59.

- looking back, you now have the certificate for the Mar 54 birth?

Matilda consistently asserted through 1881 to 1901 that she was 25/35/45, i.e. born in 1856. However, she would therefore have been 16 when she married in 1872, and I think you said you had found that she was born in 1852.

Charles believed he was 25/36/48 on the same census returns - he does seem to think he is a bit older than Matilda.

The 1852 and 1847 birth registrations therefore look like the first ones to consider and to match up.

[Edit - NB there is either one or two deaths in Jun 1852 recorded in the Prescot district - but no age in the index - the 1852 birth may have died young]

Have just received the birth certificate for Charles Johnson, and its the wrong one. On the birth certificate, it has Charles' mother as being Margaret (not Ellen) and the father as William. William's occupation was a bank clerk. I know that Charles and his family worked in the coal mining trade.

I have had a look back through the census' which are shown on this thread; and see that there is one which has an approximate year of birth as being 1847 but am not sure. Any suggestions please?

I have just looked at all the replies - thank you all very much for all the research you have done - I am amazed! It will take me a while to plough through the information, but I will certainly be requesting the birth certificate.

Thank you all once again!

Regards

Rachel

Ah you stars

I turned in yesterday about the same time as Rachel.

Kay, I agree that if an error started in the marriage register, checking back to that source will not add anything.

Rachel, hang onto that marriage certificate - it looks fairly unique in naming the mother!

- and do see what that birth certificate says - we're expecting Charles son of Ellen Johnson. I wonder whether it was available to the registrar when he recorded the marriage?

June.
Your findings look very likely.
Charles mother Ellen Johnson married so Charles name was Flynn in 1871.

Charles then marries with his real name Johnson.
The occupation on the 1871 census is also correct because on Charles marriage cert he is a labourer.

Well done

mother in 1851

Name: Ellen Johnson
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Windle, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Windle
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Prescot
Sub-registration district: St Helens
ED, institution, or vessel: 4g
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 155
Household Members: Name Age
Margret Anders 20
David Gamlle 28
Elizabeth Gamlle 25
James Crstophary Gamlle 3
Jane Gamlle 1
Ellen Johnson 20
Jannet Moffcott 45
William Sella 21



June x

census year birth are close to birth index for Prescot?

Charles Flynn disappears after 1871
and Charles Johnson appears 1881/1891/1901

June x

1891

Name: Charles Johnson
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Matilda
Gender: Male
Where born: St Helens, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Widnes
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Widnes
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Prescot
Sub-registration district: Farnworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Albert Johnson 2
Charles Johnson 36
Charles Johnson 5
Mary E Johnson 14
Matilda Johnson 35
Matilda Johnson 7
Sarah Johnson 10
Thomas H Johnson 17





1901

Name: Charles Johnson
Age: 48
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1853
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Matilda
Gender: Male
Where born: St Helens, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Kirkdale
Ecclesiastical parish: North Shore St Paul
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Kirkdale
ED, institution, or vessel: 44
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 237
Household Members: Name Age
Albert Johnson 13
Charles Johnson 48
Charles Johnson 15
Gladys J Johnson 6
Matilda Johnson 45
Arthur Ravenscroft 1
John Ravenscroft 26
Sarah Ravenscroft 20




June x