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Allan


I tried everything to find him under "his" name on the 1861 ................. even using Mort*


but ancestry wouldn't pull him out of the mix.



yet there he was when I tried Schwabe!





Mind you, I have had this same thing happen 3 or 4 times on ancestry over the last couple of weeks ................. both with a couple of my ancestors who I knew were on a census but I wanted to double check, and when looking to help someone on GR




It's very strange ...................... in every case, I've gone direct to the specific census to do the search, but the search will not find the person. When I do get to a very roundabout way ..................... there he or she is, with name spelled exactly as I've been inputting.




it's all meant to drive us even crazier than we already are :-D :-P

Thank Heaven for that Sylvia :-D

That is in no way being Rude, but I do seem to miss the flaming obvious until it's pointed out to me :-S

My head was full of conspiracy theories yesterday, thinking that the entry had been removed 'by order' I do have a very active imagination :-D

Also, Joseph's wife was a housekeeper to two extremely prominent Baronets in 1851 (as Jane Raine) and in 1861 as Jane Mortimer so as usual I put two and two together and came up with 5 :-D

However, having had a family 'story' from my cousin (Clifford's granddaughter), I am formulating a hypothesis

No doubt when I postulate it, JoonieCloonie will shoot me down in flames with her impeccable logic :-)

Allan

Allan ...................

I couldn't find him either ........................ until I searched for Schwabe, a name from the fmp that you posted



elusive as ever!

Thanks for that, Sylvia.

I only have FMP, but had access to a free weekend on Ancestry, but couldn't find Joseph. No wonder!

I did try name variations but obviously didn't look hard enough :-(

I had found Joseph on FMP a few weeks ago but couldn't find him again (I had inadvertently unticked the surname variation box)

I've also had a few problems down-loading the images to my computer, but I think that I have solved that one :-)

Allan ...........


This is how Ancestry has transcribed your Joseph on the 1861 Census


It does look more like Mortiner on the image


1861 Census

Name: Joseph Mortensen
Age: 37
Estimated birth year: 1824
Relation: Servant
Gender: Male
Where born: Oakley, Bedfordshire, England
Civil Parish: Chorlton upon Medlock
Ecclesiastical parish: St Saviour
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Registration district: Chorlton
Sub-registration district: Chorlton upon Medlock

Marity Thanfman 61
Helene Thanfman 49
Lawson 33
Jean Broeon 37
Elisa Borah 25

Adolph Schwabe 38 Calico Printer employing (????) 300 men
Mathilda Schwabe 27
Maxmillian Schwabe 7
Marin Schwabe 5
George Schwabe 17 Visitor
Frederick Schwabe 16 Visitor
Marie Ann Bland 36 Nurse
Marie Kleck 29 Maid
Annie Jones 27 Housemaid
Betsy Norbury 32 Cook
Joseph Mortensen 37 Butler

Address:- 313 Oxford St



The two "Thanfmans" ............. actually Kaufman ..... and the 3 following actually live next door, at 311 Oxford Street.

Apologies for not coming back sooner, but I've been tied up with friends' illnesses and the death of another friend.

JC

I have found Joseph on the 1861 census, although mistranscribed


name(s)
Joseph

Last name
Mortiner

Relationship
Servant

Marital status
Married

Gender
Male

Age
37

Birth year
1824

Occupation
Butler

Birth town
-

Birth town as transcribed
BEDFORD OAKLEY

Birth county
-

Birth county as transcribed
-

Birth place other as transcribed
-

House number
313

Street
Oxford Street

Parish
Chorlton upon Medlock

City or borough
Manchester

County
Lancashire

Country
England

Municipal ward
St Luke

Parliamentary borough
Manchester

Ecclesiastical district
St Saviour

Registration district
Chorlton

Enumeration district
21

Piece number
2880

Folio number
87

Page number
14

Family member last name
MORTINER, NORBURY, JONES, SCHWABE, BLAND, CLERK

Family member first name(s)
JOSEPH, BETSY, ANNE, ADOLPH, MARIE, FREDERICK, MASON, MAUDLIN, MATILDA, GEORGE

Record set
1861 England, Wales & Scotland Census

Category
Census, land & surveys

Record collection
Census

Collections from
Great Britain

I know that it doesn't really matter over much, but Chorlton upon Medlock runs into Rusholme, making a bit more sense of the Provisions and Beer supplier business

I'll fossick around, as Ozzies are wont to say.

I had noticed a preponderance of Raines in the Yorkshire/Teesdale area.

Nearly as thick on the ground as the Coe's in Cheshire.

Incidentally, I did find my maternal Grandfather who I thought was going to be as difficult to find as Clifford.

I have a theory ..................

Jane Raine's family was from Romaldkirk which is in Teesdale reg dist which spans Durham and Yorkshire North Riding

Births Dec 1848
Raine Male Teesdale 24 374

well, you never know :-)

edit ... except OOPS

Deaths Dec 1848
RAINE Male Teesdale 24 214

... so it was the usual situation of an infant dying at birth, not a birth registered before a name was chosen ...



found Jane Raine's family in 1851 in Mickleton, Teesdale reg dist

William Raine 60 > gamekeeper born Lunedale
Sarah Raine 52 born Streathman Durham
Robt Raine 22 all children born Mickleton
Ann Raine 19
John Raine 17
Valentine Raine 15
Edward Raine 10

no stray grandchildren

1841 in Mickleton

William Raine 50 gamekeeper
Sarah Raine 38
William Raine 15
Sarah Raine 14
Robert Raine 11
Nancey Raine 9
John Raine 7
Elizabeth Raine 5
Valentine Raine 3
Edward Raine 1

(Jane at age 20 already gone)

Thanks JC :-)

I fear we crossed -- cancel that birth certificate !

Clifford Austin Poole is his own man and not your man Clifford Mortimer. :-(


but for the Joseph and Jane Mortimer deaths, the ones I posted above are definitely the couple who worked as servants and settled in Lancashire.

their marriage was in St Geo Han Sqre London in 1853 remember (of course you do, oops, that is the certificate you just got)

I don't think I would go looking at random J Mortimer marriages just yet ...

Hi JC

I'll send of for the birth certificate.

The 'Death' of Joseph Mortimer at Stockport, which I originally posted much earlier on this thread, was a total mistake of mine :-(

I should have said ' Marriage' ( a bit of a grave mistake to make :-))

I did correct the mistake further down the thread. EvieBeavie was helping me at that time.

There were two Josephs married at Stockport in the 1860's but checking on FreeBMD none of the names meant anything.

I may have to revisit those, as well as the death in Chorlton.

Allan

uh oh!

I have solved the mystery of Clifford Austin Poole with that last little find ... he is apparently NOT Clifford Mortimer

married Mary Frances Donagan in 1877

1881

Name: Clifford Austin genera llabourer
Spouse: Mary F. Austin
Birth: abt 1858 - London Mary Le Bone, London, Middlesex, England
Residence: 1881 - St George Hannover Square, London, England

1891

Name: Clifford Austin furniture porter
Spouse: Mary Austin
Birth: abt 1849 - Marylebone, London, England
Residence: 1891 - Westminster, St John the Evangalist Westminster, London, England

1911

Name: Clifford Austin general labourer
Birth: abt 1848 - City of London
Residence: 2 Apr 1911 - Sutton, Surrey, England
in workhouse, married, wife not present


Mary Frances Donagan was much older than Clifford Austin Poole, 45 to his 23 in 1881

this is her death

Deaths Jun 1901
Austin Mary Frances 70 St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 301

after which he married Louisa Nolan Hopcraft


so that is the young Clifford Poole from the 1851 and 1861 taken care of and thoroughly accounted for and not your Clifford, and we are back on the single trail of the 1871 1891 Mr C Mortimer.

well that doesn't tell us much :-(


Thomas, Joseph's father, is the one in the 1861 household in Leicestershire working for the same household as Jane (Raine) Mortimer, with the two children of Jane and Joseph living with him (Jane was enumerated in the big house), while Joseph was boarding and working in Bury

- at Dog Kennels attached to Skeffington Hall
Thomas Mortimer 67 born Bedfordshire, house servant,
Elizabeth Mortimer 27 housekeeper
Sarah A Mortimer 6 grandchildren
William Mortimer 3

- Jane Mortimer 1821 Yorkshire, married, a servant at Skeffington Hall (Jane Raine)

Joseph's occ on the mrge cert matches with his 1851 occupation in St Geo Han Sqre as servant to a gentleman.


(remember that the family ended up in Lancashire later)


Romald Kirk is a hotbed of Raines

but in 1841 the only Williams of an age to be father of Jane c1821 are farmers


but ... if the C Mortimer in 1871/1891 is your Clifford, and if he is connected with this family ... it still seems he was born pre marriage so YDNA may still be the only ticket to finding out who his dad was :-)



on page 2 of this long thread you said

'Just to compound the mystery I have found a Joseph Mortimer who died in Stockport prior to my grandparents wedding.'

is this that death?
(I don't see a death in Stockport)

Deaths Mar 1896
Mortimer Joseph 72 Chorlton 8c 461

this would indeed seem to be the Joseph who married Jane Raine as he was born c1824 per the censuses and Rusholme where they eventually lived is in Chorlton reg dist

also

Deaths Dec 1892
Mortimer Jane 72 Chorlton 8c 515

Jane Raine Mortimer was born c1821 per the censuses


https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NB3J-B43

Name: Joseph Mortimore
Gender: Male
Christening Date: 16 Nov 1823
Christening Place: OAKLEY,BEDFORD,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 20 Sep 1823
Father's Name: Thomas Mortimore
Mother's Name: Ann
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C00374-2

also christenings Mary Mortimore 1821, Mary Mortimore 1828, in that batch



and you know the certificate I would still really like to see is

Births Sep 1848
POOLE Clifford Austin St Geo. Han Sq. 1 38

... and those marriages

Marriages Dec 1877
DONAGAN Mary Frances St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 763
Poole Clifford Austin St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 763

Marriages Mar 1902
Hopcraft Louisa Southwark 1d 26
Poole Clifford Austin Southwark 1d 26

:-)

edit - my guess about Louisa Hopcraft was right, Louisa Nolan aged 49 c1853 widow of Thomas Hance Hopcraft (although I can't see a death for him), married 1883 St Saviour to Clifford Austin Poole aged 54 c1848 widowed, father Austin Poole

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NJSW-2LR
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NN11-5NB

there's no marriage for an Austin Poole in the GRO or at familysearch
there's no Austin Pool/e in any census of the right age except possibly 1881
Austin Poole born c1835 London, in Metropolitan Lunatic Asylum, Watford, "imbecile" so unikely
no death of any Austin Poole to fit
I wonder whether Clifford Austin Poole was the son of a Ms Poole and a Mr Austin
which would make him not likely Clifford Mortimer ... but still so like him

Louisa Hopcraft in 1901 in Newington, widow aged 50, tailoress, born Dublin Ireland

... but how interesting, this would really seem to be her

1911

Name: Louisa Austin
Age in 1911: 60
Estimated birth year: abt 1851
Relation to Head: Head
Birth Place: Dublin, Dublin, Ireland
Civil Parish: Newington St Mary
County/Island: London
Street address: 59 Aldbridge Street, Surrey Sq, Walworth, London
Occupation: Charwoman
> Marital Status: Married

it actually says 'widow' scratched out and 'married' entered, married 9 years, so this is definitely Louisa Nolan Hopcraft who married Clifford Austin Poole in 1902 and says she is still married


I would suspect

Deaths Dec 1928
Austin Louisa 78 Southwark 1d 68

JC,

I have now received the marriage certificate for Jane Raine and Joseph Mortimer.

Both are shown as being of full age.

Joseph, a bachelor, Valet

Jane, a spinster; no occupation shown but presumably a servant

Joseph's father is shown as Thomas Mortimer, Servant

Jane's father shown as William Raine Game Keeper.

The witnesses are a George Cragmore (?)

.........(?) Mathews (?)

I'll search on the 1841 census for Thomas Mortimer and William Raine

JC,

I apologise for the delay, but I'm finding Clifford one of those scratches that sometimes irritate you.

Your reference to Jane Raine/Mortimer as a servant (albeit Housekeeper) in a large house has got me thinking.

Several members of the household in 1851/61 are shown as either Army Captain, or retired officers

Now, massive leap, and probably an erroneous assumption, but a previous researcher, JaneyCanuck, helped me with some Canadian Sketches.

With her help I was able to send images of those sketches to Canada, where they proved to be of historical significance.

Now, the last of those sketches was done in 1850.

What if Jane had a son who showed some artistic talent? Could a kindly soldier have given him at least one of the books as an incentive to develop that talent?

I am apt to make extremely erroneous leaps :-(

aha! on sober second thought and after wading through all the muddle, you see it too :-)

I so wish I could find that fellow in 1881 (and I have tried repeatedly since last posting here, too)

if he is the Clifford Poole in 51 and 61, who afterward disappears, that would be those four years accounted for

but 1881 and 1901, just no sign even of C Poole ... even though he married in 1877

(which of course, it must be said, is leading us down a path toward possible name change because of bigamy ...)

for the 'decorator' occupation, don't forget what I mentioned from what was posted in the thread much earlier:

your Clifford was 'Decorative Artist (Theatre and Cinema)' on his death certificate
and 'Painter Artist' in the 1911 census

'decorator' as in 'set decorator' ... or just an enumerator's arbitrary term for his occupation ...

I'm glad you came back because I was starting to feel a bit humpy that you weren't as fascinated with the 1871/91 Mr Mortimer as I was :-D

that marriage certificate idea sounds interesting, hurry back with the info !

JC

That C Mortimer on the 1871/1891 Census is too much of a co-incidence.

I use FMP and on viewing the image on the 1861 census it looks as though the word after Theatre could be Service.

Also, the term Decorator could well apply as in a couple of trades directories my grandfather advertised in, it was under the heading 'Interior Designers'

I have sent off for a copy of Jane Raine's marriage certificate (1853) to see if that can provide any further clues.

I will let you know if anything turns up :-). It usually takes two to three weeks for the certs to arrive here

JC,

Many thanks for the further info.

I'll investigate further. I still have to check out the witnesses to my grandparents marriage.

With respect to the 1891 census for Adelaide Coe, the Charles Coe in the household was her gt uncle. I sent of for his Death Certificate a few years ago thinking that it was my great grandfather, only to find that the informant was Annie Coe (Adelaide's mother) who was shown as his niece.

The Coe's didn't have much imagination when it came to naming their children, with Richard, Charles William and Johnson being the most common names when naming children of various brothers (if that makes sense).

It doesn't help that Adelaide's mother, Annie, who came from Ireland, had the maiden name Coe.

As for the Coes in the South of England it is possible that they are related, but I have tried to concentrate on the immediate family of Adelaide, as they never ventured far from Cheshire.

Watch this space :-D

big stretch ... did Adelaide's Coe family have any connection with Surrey?

_______________________________________________________

the household 'C Mortimer' the Decorator was visiting in 1891 in Reigate Surrey

> Alfred Hooker 42 gardener born Dorking Surrey
Harriett A Hooker 46 born Horsham Sussex
Alfred Hy Hooker 15
Florence M Hooker 13
Albert J Hooker 11
> C Mortimer 43

Alfred Hooker with his mother and stepfather in 1861 in Dorking Surrey (also 1871)

> William Coe 44 c1817 Dorking Surrey, gardener
Hannah Coe 48
James Hooker 17
Henry Hooker 14
> Alfred Hooker 12
Jane Hooker 7

1871 someone has corrected William Coe's name but no details

Name: William Dodd
[William Coe]
Age: 54
Estimated birth year: abt 1817
Where born: Dorking, Surrey, England

_______________________________________________________

Adelaide Coe's household in 1891 in Cogshall Cheshire

John Coe 61 c1830 Whitley Cheshire, chemical laborer
Margeret Coe 66
Charles Coe 59 c1832 Whitley Cheshire, brother, widowed, timekeeper chem works - her father?
Adelaid Coe 9 niece

_______________________________________________________

too big a stretch I imagine

I was waiting for a call back from the emergency vet and finally gave up until the morning, but here I sat, playing with this and that and Mortimers and Coes ... :-)

now this is a bit of an interesting character
who could possibly be son of Jane Raine

and here I am wandering off into speculation even farther

>>> it's the 1871/1891 'C Mortimer' I am mostly proposing you consider

_______________________________________________________

Births Sep 1848
POOLE Clifford Austin St Geo. Han Sq. 1 38

Marriages Dec 1877
Poole Clifford Austin St. Geo. H. Sq. 1a 763
to
Mary Frances Donagan
or
Emma Louisa Treadaway (born 1856 Westminster who almost certainly married William Fielder, see 1891 census, and died 1914)
- no apparent death of Mary Frances as Poole or Pool pre 1902

Marriages Mar 1902
Poole Clifford Austin Southwark 1d 26
to
Louisa Hopcraft (see 1911 census below?)
or
Rose Richardson
(one of them married Thomas Samuel Watts)
edit - I think Richardson married Watts: Rosina (1883 Walworth) and Thomas (1884 Southwark, see birth of Thomas Samuel Watts 1884 Southwark) in Newington St Mary in 1911 with child 6.
- so Clifford Austin Poole married Louisa Hopcraft ...


with no apparent death of Clifford Poole or Pool

_______________________________________________________

no sign of him in censuses except probably 1851 and 1861


1851
Name: Clifford Poole
Age: 2
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Visitor
Where born: Gt La, Middlesex, England - I think it says Mddx Geo Sqre
Civil Parish: Newington
County/Island: Surrey
Registration district: Newington
William Carter 66 receiving clerk retired??
Francis Carter 51
Clifford Poole 2

1861
Name: Clifford Poole
Age: 13
Estimated birth year: 1848
Relation: Boarder, nurse child seems to have been scratched out
Where born: Oxford, London, England
Civil Parish: Newington St Mary
County/Island: Surrey
Registration district: Newington
Frances Carter, 61, widow, seamstress, born Kent


nothing more in censuses
but there are the two marriages ...

_______________________________________________________

possibly interestingly

Births Jun 1890
Pool Charles Austin Chorlton 8c 923


1911

Name: Charles A Pool
Age in 1911: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1891
Relation to Head: Son
Birth Place: Manchester, Lancashire, England
Civil Parish: North Manchester
County/Island: Lancashire
Street address: 23 Petworth St Cheetham Manchester
Marital Status: Single
Occupation: Clerk Shipping Office
Registration district: Prestwich

Louisa Pool 55 widowed born Lytham, Lancashire
Daisy Pool 13 born Macclesfield Cheshire, no matching birth
Charles A Pool 20
Annie Graham 17 servant
Thomas Dillon 41 boarder born Clare, Ireland


cannot find him/them in 1891 or 1901

Deaths Jun 1957
POOL Charles A 67 Oldham 10f 60


edit, found that household in 1891

Name: Charles E Pool
Age: 42
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary L Pool
Where born: Tooting, Surrey, England - see Sep 1847 Wandsworth
Civil Parish: Moss Side
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: Chorlton
Occupation: Cashier to Cotton [?] Manufacturer
Charles E Pool 42
Mary L Pool 56 born Lytham Lancs - Mary Louisa Baron marriage 1889 Prescot
Charles C Pool 10/12 born Manchester
Elizabeth Davis 21

so that young Charles Austin Pool (household in 1911) is not connected with the Clifford Austin Poole born in St Geo Han Sqre in 1848 or the Clifford Austin Poole marriages in 1877 and 1902, and his mother was not Louisa Hopcraft.

One more down ...

_______________________________________________________


still looking for C/CG Mortimer the decorator/scenic artist (1871 and 1891) in 1881 and 1901
and in 1851 and 1861 if he is not the Clifford Poole nurse child shown above, which I tend to think he is

and still almost 100% convinced that C/CG Mortimer the decorator/scenic artist in 1871 and 1891 is our man :-)