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I'm just waiting for a happy ending to this long journey and great story -

could you sell the rights for a film or a book - you would then get more finance

for certs ;-) ;-) ;-)

Mavis

:-D :-D :-D

Sorry, Jooney, I seem to think that everyone has a memory like mine :-D

I like to think that I'm trying to accumulate so much knowledge, that some it just oozes away. My wife, on the other hand, describes me as plain forgetful :-S

Regarding the Bobtails, we just let them have the run of the garden, which can be frightening at times as the tend to hide under the debris.

We also have two Guinea Pigs which we keep outside in a glorified rabbit hutch. If we are not careful the bobtails will spend the night in there. We let the GPs out during the day and leave the hutch open so that they can return whenever the want.

The bobtails sneak in and eat the GPs' food.

We can handle them, but have to be careful. Although they have no teeth, they do have very powerful jaws, and can inflict a painful bite.

Not your ideal cuddly creature :-D

feral bobtails ... you mean these are domesticated beasties? I mean I would have thought they were feral by nature ...

ah okay ...

http://www.pilbarapythons.com/bobtail.htm

'The Bobtail lizard is one of the most well known and recognized lizards in Australia. They are one of the larger skinks in Australia and are commonly kept as pets.'

! my brother has an iguana as a 'pet' ... it doesn't actually do anything but he seems to like it

do bobtails ... I mean, do they go for walks on leashes, or curl up on your lap and keep you warm under the blankies on chilly evenings ... are they cute like guinea pigs ... can you litter train them, or do you keep them in bobtail containers ... do they learn tricks ... ??

the way you describe them is just like the feral cats where I am !


yes I know Jane Mortimer was a Raine, I'm the one who found her out and sent you off down this particular trail to we know not where :-)

Jooney, we have an unknown number of Bobtails in the back garden, although I doubt that there are more than six.

Some are youngsters, given their smaller size, but the adults were at one stage feral ones that made their way into the garden.

We have never bought any, nor do we treat the ones we have as pets, but they do come to the back door on a regular basis where we give then various bits of fruit etc.

Since they have been here, the back garden has been remarkably clear of snails and slugs.

As for the certificates, I'm sending off for William and Sarah Ann's birth certificates, Sarah Ann's Marriage and Death Certificate and Robert Burroughs Death Certificate

I just need to recheck the details of the latter, as the only one I could find that fitted was in 1913 in Lancaster.

The surname has changed from Borroughs to Burroughs, but it is the only death I can find which is in an approximate geographical location to Manchester.

I also saw from two censuses that a girl with the surname Raine was present with Robert and described as Niece. Raine was Jane Mortimer's maiden name , and Jane came from Yorkshire.

I've done a search on FreeBMD for Robert from 1911 up to 1940, which I'll repeat before applying for the cert.

Crafty ... hehehe. Isn't the OH with her bobbins actually the crafty one though? :-D

I didn't say anything to your previous posting because I couldn't think of anything to say ... other than yes indeed, other people's families (if that is what this turns out to be) can be even more fun than one's own ! When they do at least have the same name and there is a hope of finding a connection, it at least doesn't seem like a complete loss.

What I did do when I saw your last posting was go off and read up on bobtails which i had never heard of ... almost as much fun as other people's families :-)

Six certificates being ordered soon.

Whether this Mortimer family is related or not, it's been a fascinating journey through its history.

There are just too many co-incidences, or at least, my mind wants to make a connection

:-D :-D :-D

I know :-D

:-D :-D :-D

You just have to wait for the right moment, Sylvia ;-)

you crafty beggar!!

:-D :-D :-D

Curiouser and curiouser, cried Alice

Whilst waiting for further certificates, or more precisely, waiting for the right time to advise my wife that I was about to send off for at least six more certificates, I have done some further work on FMP.

More precisely, on the Westminster Collection on that site.

As you are aware Joseph and Jane Mortimer's eldest child, Sarah Ann, was born in 1854 with the birth being registered at St George's Hanover Square.

The Baptism Records show that Sarah Ann was baptised in the Parish of St George, Hanover Square on the 14th May, 1854

Parents shown as Joseph and Jane, living in Mount Street

Now for the oddity; for some reason, the Parish Records show the 'Quality, Trade or Profession' of the father.

Joseph now pops up as a Publican

Admittedly, the children who appear on either side of Sarah Ann
and Baptised on the same day, have father's shown as Servants, so it could be a simple mix-up by a harassed Vicar.

By the way, I now have OH's approval to send off for the Certificates OH is into crafts, particularly Quilting Sewing and Embroidery.

Yesterday I was shown a colour chart of various threads she needs for her new machine (new for her, but a second hand one). The threads cost $A10.00 a bobbin.

I agreed the OH could purchase as many as were required, and then casually dropped into the conversation that I required a 'few' more certs. Nothing said :-D

Just another thought. If Robert Borroughs was the last (by marriage) of the Mortimer relatives, who would have reported his death?

I'll try to find his death and send off for the certificate

Update, and my apologies for the late response. I've had a few issues to deal with

Deaths;

Jane Mortimer died 10th December1892, at 43 Monmouth Street, Rusholme, Manchester. Informant R Burroughs (Borroughs) son-in-law of the same address

Joseph Mortimer died 17th January 1896 at the Union Workhouse Withington. Cause of death was pneumonia. Informant Robert Borroughs, son-in-law, 43 Monmouth Street, Rusholme, Manchester.

In the 1901 Census Robert Borroughs is still shown at Monmouth Street as a Beer Retailer, but on the image the enumerator has added the word pub, which I suppose could be either Publican or Public House

he is still there in 1911, although the address is now 492 Claremont Road, Rusholme.

Monmouth's Street name was changed to Claremont Road.

Joseph's sister, Elizabeth Elms, who was shown running the Monmouth Street business in the 1891 Census, pops up in 1901at 10 Moor Street (House and shop) as a Grocer and Beer Retailer.

In 1911, she is living with her niece and nephew, Charles and Elizabeth Craven, in Long Hedges Boston, Lincolnshire. Charles is now a Farmer and Market Gardner, but in 1901 he and his wife were living with Elizabeth Elms and presumably helping in the business.

Elizabeth Elms herself is a bit of a character

In the 1871 Census she is shown as living in Manchester (Back Mosley Street) and married to one John Elms, bricklayer.

Elizabeth is 37, John is 28.

I can't find a marriage for the pair. I've searched from 1861, when Elizabeth was at Skeffington until 1871 when she pops up married to John.

After 1871 I haven't been able to find John Elms, although the various censuses have many J. E.'s shown in various Mental Institutions within the Lancashire area.

In 1881 lo and behold Elizabeth turns up In Altrincham, Cheshire as housekeeper to one John Fred Cooke who is shown as being a Salesman (Dealer) Calico printer.

I'm wondering that as Joseph once worked as a Butler to a calico printer, whether he helped Elizabeth find that position?

Elizabeth is still 'married' in 1881, but a widow by 1891. Again I have searched between those dates and can't find a death for John Elms, which would fit with his approx. age.

Joseph and Jane's daughter Sarah Ann died in 1895. I haven't got the actual cert but have found it on FreeBMD, where I also found her Marriage to Robert Borroughs in 1882.

I think that I'll send off for the missing certificates so that I at least have a complete set

Now, as to my hypothesis regarding the William Mortimer who went to America and returned and may have changed his name; I have since found that he returned from his second trip to America in November 1904 which blows my thoughts right out of the water as Clifford married Adelaide in August 1904 :-(

Even if it is the wrong Mortimer family it has been a fascinating journey with them.

Joonie,

Co-incidence, circumstantial evidence?

With the help of my nephew, we've been doing a search on the properties in Manchester where Joseph (1871) and Clifford (1911) lived.

Apparently. Monmouth Street's name was changed to Claremont Road.

Greame Street was less than a mile away.

I will have to revisit the relative Joseph was visiting in 1891 (from memory, Joseph's sister) and find a date of death for her.

Now, and this is purely co-incidental, as a young child I lived in the same area. I went to a primary school very close to where Clifford and Adelaide lived.

My brother went to a Secondary School on Claremont Road

:-S :-S :-S

I am still not claiming Joseph as a relative at the moment, and I don't want to jump on small items and use them, just because they 'fit' in with my perceptions.

My thanks for that, Joonie, I keep forgetting about the power of computers and databases :-S

all you need to do with the YDNA test is do it

matching is automatic ... you get notices of people who match at various levels of markers

but you can sign up to as many projects as you like ... my testee on one side of the family is signed up to three different surnames, because any one of them might be the 'real' surname (the one that seems to be the real one was revealed solely by the matching process as it was one never suspected anytime in recorded memory)

once you have tested you just send a message to the administrator for any project you like and say this is one of the suspected surnames in your paternal line, and then you get signed up and also automatically slotted in with any person or group that you match up with, if there is any

it all only works if someone your YDNA matches with has actually tested there ... and you can imagine what the odds of that are, and how insanely lucky I was to get the match I did

on the other side of my family, I got a 100% match when I uploaded the results to Ancestry where it turned out the matching person had tested ... I already knew who he was because we had 'met' through Ancestry before and I knew that he has the same greatx2 grandfather as my testee ... so we know that from there on down, both our lines are 'legitimate' :-D

there's sure to be a Christmas sale of some sort ... don't forget to ask Santa!

Joonie,

Re Army Service. I've had a look at a couple of websites, both of which indicate that most Cavalry Units (of which the 6th Dragoons was one) usually went to India as part of their 'tour' I don't know about the Horse Guards or the Lifeguards.

I am assuming that after the Napoleonic wars they may have been more or less 'home based' given their respective prestigious status.

The 1861 Census does show that two of Richard Sutton's brothers (Charles and Henry G) were retired Officers. There is no indication as to whether they were Army or Navy, but given the family's love of horses, I suspect that it will be Army.

I'll check it out.

Joonie, I'll probably have to leave the DNA testing until Christmas, if there is a sale on then.

I'd forgotten that Wednesday is my son's birthday, Friday is our Wedding Anniversary and I owe $300.00 as from 1st September for membership fees for an organisation of which I am a member.

And just for the icing on the cake, our Council rates are due on the 12th.

If I spend anything else this month, my wife will ensure I get to ask Clifford personally just what his origin was :-(

On a more serious note, because I will do the DNA test, can you register for two family names?

I still haven't had a more thorough look at the website

just puddling a bit more

unfortunately no record seems to have survived here

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/household-cavalry-soldiers.htm

Household Cavalry soldiers' service records 1799-1920 ... Royal Horse Guards ...


FMP military records does show

Sutton Francis — — 1840 Harts Army List 1840 Great Britain

which could be a possible


there are alliances between household Household Cavalry outfits in Canada and Britain it seems but I see nothing about British Horse Guards in Canada

of course it is possible that someone was in an entirely different military unit and joined the Horse Guards later

okay here is something from the London Gazette, which is nearly impossible to get decent search results from now

1849
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/21054/page/3943
... War-Office, 28th December 1849. Royal Regiment of Horse Guards, Captain Francis Sutton, from the 6th Dragoons, to be Captain, vice Brevet Major Hanmer, who exchanges.

so there we are, he was in the 6th Dragoons

(that info is what also appears in the Army List publications ... just google "francis sutton" "6th dragoons")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_%28Inniskilling%29_Dragoons

but no apparent Canada connection ...


oops at least two people have FS 1822 in their trees here at GR

Richard did have several other sons as well of course

http://www.thepeerage.com/p5059.htm#i50583

Fertiliser! :-|

Why can't things be straightforward?

Joonie, I do not want to claim any relationship with the rich and famous, but at least the poor and normal could make themselves known

Thanks for the links, I'll check them out :-)

switching tracks again ... there is a Sutton project at ftdna :-)

https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?Group=Sutton

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Sutton/

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Sutton/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

but it's one of the ones where the table doesn't show ancestral origins


there's a Mortimer one too

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Mortimer/default.aspx

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Mortimer/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

it doesn't have any Bedfordshire origin Mortimers but then one never knows what came before Bedfordshire

very interesting thought

1901 census - Captain Horse Guard(s)

other censuses just say late/retired captain in army


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_Guards

not much help


here we are

http://www.thepeerage.com/p5059.htm#i50589

Captain Francis Sutton was born on 2 September 1822.
He was the son of Sir Richard Sutton, 2nd Bt. and Mary Elizabeth Burton.
He married Lady Evelyn Mary Stuart Dawson-Damer, daughter of Colonel Rt. Hon. George Lionel Dawson-Damer and Mary Georgiana Emma Seymour, on 19 April 1855.
He died on 26 November 1906 at age 84, with another s (died young):. (? it says that)
He was also known as Francis Sutton.
>> He was Captain Royal Horse Guards.
Child of Captain Francis Sutton and Lady Evelyn Mary Stuart Dawson-Damer
1. Captain Francis Richard Hugh Seymour Sutton+ b. 22 Jul 1858, d. 28 Mar 1926


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Horse_Guards

As the regiment's uniform was blue in colour at the time, it was nicknamed "the Oxford Blues", from which was derived the nickname the "Blues." In 1750 the regiment became the Royal Horse Guards Blue and eventually, in 1877, the Royal Horse Guards (The Blues).

The regiment served in the French Revolutionary Wars and in the Peninsular War. Two squadrons fought, with distinction, in the Household Brigade at the Battle of Waterloo.


everything just skips over the mid-19th century