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Thank you FBG. It is great to be able to communicate again. Still a little weary but I think that is what happens when you sit around doing nothing for a spell.

Lovely to see you back Aunty,I do hope one is now very much back in the chair and all is well.

Night Night

Hi ten hours sleep has done wonders. I can think. OK re your GFX. You know he was in the Army, you know his official records did not survive.

Have you thought about searching (via google of course) through the records of the unit/company/battalion etc of which he was a member.

A great majority of these entities have their own web pages with lots of info about battles, where they were and the personnel involved during the wars. Sort of company history type reports.

Hi Janey, My apologies for leaving my "post". Reading with interest. Spent last three days climbing walls in hospital. Potentially serious wobbler tested and scanned and apparently not so serious. I need to catch up on my sleep and my life. Talk to you later.

Brother's name is indeed one possibility -- especially maybe if he just assumed brother was named for father, being the oldest and all.

I've also seen mother's father and mother's brother as stand-ins for father on a marriage certificate, where parents weren't married and groom didn't know or didn't want to name father with a different surname.


And by the way -- I finally found my father's father -- i.e. no relation to the name-shifting Hills on my mum's side -- in the 1911 this past week -- and the given names below are true, just totally coincidental!

His name was
first name [we'll say John], middle name Frederick, surname "X",
born in the early 1890s.

His father's name was William Frederick X.

So what is my grfather's name, in the military in 1911? Frederick William X.

He had enrolled in the military sometime before he was of age, I assume (the tale we always heard was age 13, a drummer boy in Egypt), using a fake name amounting to his father's name, in reversed order.

He married my grmother under his real name before WWI ended, and stayed in the military until 1921. But he doesn't appear to have come clean about his name (from what I can tell from his incoherent medal card) until 1925 when he requested reissuance of his medals in his real name.

I never would have suspected name-shifting on that side of the family. His family was quite prosperous, no bankruptcies or desertions or any such thing that I know of. I don't know why he would have made up a name to join the army -- it's not like by doing that he would have proved he was older than he was. Of course, no other WWI records of him have survived. Was he a juvenile delinquent on the lam?? One more mystery ...

But just to add another fake-name example to the catalogue!

Thank you Janey. The info abouve is taken from the certificates I now have in my possession. If they fit any of your Hill(s) you are welcome to them. As is anyone else who reads this thread.

I now have a request into GRO for the next two Frederick William Hill births on my list. Given your uncanny gift for locking into the correct options I am beginning to believe you just may be right with your theory about the parent name being incorrect.

I am still wondering whether Frederick may have actually been born in Australia. The only information against this theory is his journey from UK to Oz. I must go back and read that again.

The important piece of info is that he left Sydney to go to UK on board the Orontes not the other way around.

Oh damn I'm off with the fairies again. However if he was a passenger on a ship coming to Australia in addition to his voyage on the Orontes that might give me another lead.

By the way. Did you know that the woman FW Hill married in 1919 had a father who was a shoemaker!!

Also what if Ernest was Frederick's older brother. Say ten years older. Frederick did not know his parents names and he was brought up only knowing his brother who acted in loco parentis.

Just so you know you're not all alone ...

I looked at the FW with father FW in the 1891 and 1901. Father was 1891 army pensioner, 1901 shoemaker.

However, in 1901 he has a different wife. Elizabeth, not Mary, born Lincolnshire, not Somerset. I.e., that FW was orphaned young re mother.

1911

HILL FREDERICK WILLIAM 1858 53 Wandsworth London

but too many Hills for me to tell who with.

Interestingly, there is no Frederick Hill marriage to Mary Quick. Quick, btw, is a good Cornwall name. ;)


The FW with parents George Charles and mother Elizabeth Alice -- I'm not seeing him in 1891. There's a GCH death 1890 in Lambeth age 40, and one 1896 in Wandsworth aged 33. No Elizabeth Alice deaths 1888-1901 of right age in right place.

Marriages Sep 1887
HILL George Charles Mile End 1c 822
SHARP Elizabeth Alice Mile End 1c 822


I'm still considering the possibility of the father's name in the records you have being just wrong, for whatever reason, or a stepfather's given names ...

From the list on page 1. 28 Feb 2010. Score 0/2

Sep 1887
HILL Frederick William…….. Kensington London…….. 1a 96

30 Jun 1887 father Frederick William Hill, mother Mary Hill, formerly Quick. Occupation of father Canteen Sergeant. Birth registered by mother on 23 Jul 1887. Address Kensington Barracks Kensington Town Middlesex..

Jun 1888
HILL Frederick William…….. Mile End London…….. 1c 465

7 Apr 1888. Father George Charles Hill, mother Elizabeth Alice Hill formerly Sharp. Occupation of father Journeyman, Brass Moulder. Birth registered by mother, address 20 Etinouth (??) Street Mile End Middlesex.

Just keeping things together. Have been looking at a death in SA Keswick military hospital in 1936. Found a corresponding death notice in a Melbourne newspaper. Gave name of father, mother and wife. No match for this FW Hill. back to the drawing board.

Just had a thought about looking through the school admission registers in the London area and found this info on line. Looks interesting. So I have just emailed them and said, "help". Ah more bald people running around the place.


"London Metropolitan Archives and Guildhall Library Manuscripts Section are working in partnership with Ancestry™ to digitise genealogical sources.

Over 11 million parish register entries are already available at Ancestry.co.uk along with poor law sources which include workhouse records. Further records to be added in the coming months include:

Additional poor law documents - relating to the administration of poor relief, including more workhouse registers from 1834 onwards
London school admissions – records from 843 individual London schools dating from the early Victorian times through to 1911, providing admission and personal details for millions of London students
It is anticipated that the full digitisation and indexing program will include:

Parish baptisms, marriages and burials
Bishops transcripts
Parish poor law records
Boards of Guardians records
Diocesan marriage bonds and allegations
Non-conformist baptisms, marriages and burials
School admission and discharge registers
Electoral registers, overseers returns and poll books
Land tax records
Wills
City of London Freedoms
Middlesex Sessions – Transportation Contracts
We will provide free access to view the indexes and images through Ancestry.co.uk on the computer terminals in our public rooms. The program will start shortly and we will release further information about the project over the coming months."

Well have just scrolled through the thread. With great difficulty I might add. GR is very slow and very hesitant today.

There is no mention of any of the names listed above by LadyKira. Been looking for a Hill living as a boarder or a student.

Back to the drawing board. And actually off to work before they phone to find out where I am and I have to tell them I'm searching London in the 1880s.

Heavens I am so thick. Just going back over the whole thread. On 3 Apr I posted this bit of info from the embarkation rolls. The last name in a group of four. It is him. As I found out a couple of days ago.


FWH 604 37th Battalion 1916-1917 Returned to Aus

Thanks LadyKira, So he was sent to that address in 1888 aged almost 4. However in 1891 when he would have been 7 he is not there by name and neither is any other Hill. Now I am going back to look for the posts werer Frederick lived as a boarder with other families.

I did wonder if the address may have been an orphanage or school or boarding house.

1881 census - address transcription
Address: 97, Flaxman Rd, Lambeth

900 NICHOLLS, Allen W Head Married M 28 1853 Warehouseman
So Norwood
Surrey VIEW
900 NICHOLLS, Mary A Wife Married F 25 1856
Chelsea
Middlesex VIEW
900 NICHOLLS, Allen P P Son Single M 3 1878
Lambeth
Surrey VIEW
900 NICHOLLS, Emmie B Daughter Single F 0 1881
Lambeth
Surrey VIEW

1891 census - address transcription
Address: 97, Flaxman Road, Lambeth

13 WARR, William Head Married M 25 1866 Joiner
Sherborne
Dorsetshire
13 WARR, Caroline Wife Married F 27 1864
Milborne Port
Somersetshire
13 WARR, Mable Daughter F 7 1884 Scholar
Sherborne
Dorsetshire
13 WARR, Gertrude Daughter F 5 1886 Scholar
Lambeth
London
13 WARR, Grace M Daughter F 8 1883 Scholar
Lambeth
London
13 THEATES, Francis Boarder Single M 27 1864 Printer Compositor
Sherborne
Dorsetshire

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

14 WHITEHEAD, Ellen H Head Widow F 27 1864
Sherborne
Dorsetshire
14 WHITEHEAD, Ellen M Daughter F 4 1887
Brixton
London

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

15 MINBRIDGE, Ann E Lodger F 42 1849 Book Binders Forewoman
London

Although numbering may have changed.

Rheumatic fever gives Heart problems in later life.



Flaxman road is a few yards into Lambeth but in the suburb of Camberwell.
Possible boundaries have moved slightly.

I have been looking at the HHARP Historic Hospital Admissions Research Project. There is a thread somewhere about it. I have just found a Frederick Hill admitted 11 jan 1888 aged 3 years, for Scarlet fever, an abcessed iliac and spinal caries. (if I am reading the info correctly). It gives an address to where he was discharged. Wonder how I can back track to that address and find out who lived there. My Frederick Hill had rheumatic fever and sciatic rheumatism as a young man. The diseases sort of fit don't they?????

The address is 97 Flaxman Road Camberwell. Tried to find the address but could only come up with a Flaxman Rd Lambeth in the 1901 census.

This Frederick was also sent to the Homerton FH. Which I think is the Homerton Fever Hospital


I am still waiting for my birth certificates to arrive.

Well that achieved nothing. Except I found a new site where you can list the name of someone you are looking for. It's called Family History UK. It is free. Well the initial contact is free I have not looked further than that.

http://www.familyhistory.uk.com/

You register the name you are searching and give an email address. They send you an email confirming the details of your search. You reply to the email which validates the registration. Then you search stays on the site for 700 days. After that they send another email and if you don't respond they take the query off their boards. Sounds interesting because you know that anyone who has registered will always be there within a two year time frame.

There are two ways of tacking this.

One is to assume that everything Frederick Hill said or wote or put as an answer to a question is a lie. And try to prove that.

The second way is to assume everything he said or wrote etc etc is the truth. And try to prove it.

If we are talking truth. The military angle.
FWH enlisted in the AIF in Feb 1916. He states on his enlistment papers both his mother and father are dead and he has never served in any military establishment either at home (Aust) or abroad.

This cancels out the likelihood of any of the military Frederick Hill being him.


If he is telling the truth about his father being named Ernest William it is no sense looking for a father called Frederick.

I would be happier if he had said his father's name was Frederick, rather than Ernest.

Now just looking at the info above re the Frederick jnr and snr and father being a shoemaker. The father of the woman FW Hill married was a bootmaker.

Hey I can draw conclusions and coincidences and add three and three and make it into statistics but without that piece of paper which says where when and to whom we are lost.

About page 3 or 4 I listed every Frederick William Hill born in UK in a time frame. Then I sorted them by region and left the ones in the London area at the top of the list. I then started searching each of them to find them in census lists to check whether they had an Ernest attached.

Did not get very far. Did not find any, except one and even that one is wildly improbable.

This is the only father and son combination which puts a Frederick and an Ernest in the same sentence.

Name: Ernest George Frederick Hill
[Ernest Goerge Frederick Hill]
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 23 Nov 1884
Father's Name: Ernest Thomas Hill
Mother's Name: Agnes Annie Hill
Parish: St James Norlands, Kensington
Borough: Kensington and Chelsea
County: Middlesex

Now all I need to do is go find that Annie Hill lived until she was 80 and Ernest Thomas signed with his mark because he could not write.

I have to be gone for a while. When I return I intend to start searching orphanage type records in the London area between 1886 and 1889. Had what's left of my hair cut tonight so there's now less to be pulled out!!!

Oh right, it was one of those jibberishy c&ps from FMP that make my eyes glaze over ...

He's a *visitor* in the household. There's no reason to believe he's an orphan. Ms. White may have just had all her nieces and nephews to visit for the school hols. It's pretty much a seaside resort place, isn't it?

The next door neighbour is living on her own means, and has an assistant schoolteacher spinster daughter. Various neighbours look like genteel ladies - a lodging house with older women, a visiting governess. The house that FH is visiting has a name, as do all the houses ahead of it in the district -- Sea View, Marine View, Clifton House ... with lots of lodgers and visitors. That's prime ocean view real estate, I think!

(The transcription given on p2 of the thread is wrong, actually. Manor House is the preceding house. The house where that FH is, is St Stephens.)

Hardly looks like a waif to me! What's the attraction??


Oh, and isn't this likely him in 1901?
(or at least: the Kensington birth)

Name: Frederick W Hill
Age: 13
Estimated birth year: abt 1888
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Frederick W
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Male
>> Where born: Kensington, London, England

Civil parish: Wandsworth

Frederick W Hill 43 - shoemaker
Elizabeth Hill 38
Frederick W Hill 13
Elizabeth Hill 8
Mary Hill 7
Clorinda E W Hill 4
Ether E Hoveare 20


All right, not exactly the landed gentry. ;)

Where am I going wrong here?



Ta, Fanny! That was a great help, wasn't it? ;)