Find Ancestors

Yes it has with one very important addition.
Look at bottom line...
Crew member (3rd Class Waiter) born BOW, LONDON.

Oh Choccy I could kiss you. Where on earth did you find that info.

I have his continuous certificate of discharge which includes this info from the start of my thread......

"Information includes (1) Orontes 115707 Glasgow, 4621. Date and place of engagement 31.3.1915 Sydney, rating, 3rd class waiter, date and place of discharge 26 May 1915 Tilbury. Description of voyage: Australia.

(2) Orontes, 115707 Glasgow 4621 Engagement 4 Jun 1915 Tilbury, 3rd class waiter, Discharge 19.7.1915 Sydney. Description of voyage Australia. "

But no where have I ever seen the words "Bow, London" written.

That gives me a definitive place instead of just London.

Oh thank you! One tiny step more.

haven't digested all of thread, but has this been posted already ?




New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922

Name: F Hill
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887
Age: 28
Port of Departure: London
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 18 Jul 1915
Vessel Name: Orontes


Crew member (3rd Class Waiter ) born BOW, LONDON

I did say Exeter was too far.

Name: Ernest William Hill
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1888
Age at Death: 22
Registration district: Exeter
Inferred County: Devonshire
Volume: 5b

Don't suppose I could find a marriage and the birth of a child Frederick William????!!!

I have just re read the thread. Truly rooly it is worse than Janey's Actress Ada and the Moncks thread. We are researching stuff we have already searched. I have just looked for Ernest William Hill between 1861 and 1867 on the Free BDM. There are six or seven possibilities.

Why pick those dates? Because if FW was born in 1887 then father Ernest could have been born about 20 or so years earlier. Now I need to know when each of these Ernest William Hillses married, had children and died. Wot??!!! Simple. Not a problem. Aghrrrrrrr sob, sob!!

>>>>1861 Headington 3a 547
>>>>>1861 Wandsworth 1d 396
1863 Warrington 8c 147
1865 Exeter 5b 85
>>>>>1866 Poplar 1c 645
1867 Wells 5c 606

We can rule out Warrington, that's Liverpool, Exeter is too far west, and Wells is Bristol. Ha the wonders of Google Maps.
I know the others are in the general area of London.

Do you think you are wasting your valuable time. You could be searching for your Ernest, who is just as likely to pop up out of this myriad of Hill(s) you have found.

It is no use asking me which one fits. I do not jolly well know. I wish I had listened to my mother when she was alive!!!

I have the following certificates all Frederick William Hill, all "boy" all born between 1886 and 1889.

1886 father Charles, mother Sarah Caroline nee Revell, occupation housepainter, Wandsworth

1887 father Frederick William, mother Mary nee Quick (or Tuick), occupation Canteen Sergeant, Kensington Barracks.

1888 father George Charles, mother Elizabeth Alice nee Sharp, occupation journeyman brass moulder, Mile End old Town.

1889 father Alfred Horace, mother Jane, nee Harper, compositor, Stockwell, Lambeth.

Think I have some more somewhere. So rule those out unless we can prove the parents died and orphaned poor Fred.

By the way I like all of your options. Everything you say makes sense and I am learning to think outside the square. It just comes down to indecision. Which one of these families will I choose. What else can I look at to find the dratted man???!!!

Just following this one a bit.

1891 has this household

Name: Fredrick Hill
Age: 7
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1884
Relation: Nephew
Where born: Walworth, London, England

Civil parish: St George The Martyr
County/Island: London
Registration district: St Saviour Southwark

John R Hill 66 (full name John Rowland Hill)
Emma Hill 59
Charlotte Hill 16 - daughter, born Walworth
Fredrick Hill 7
James Denyer 19


The household in 1881 - no Charlotte:

John R. Hill 56
Emma Hill 46
Jane Hill 15
George Hill 14 (living next door in 1891 with wife)
Frederick Hill 12
Sarah Hill 10
Elizabeth Hill 7


1871

John Rowland Hill 46 - labourer, born Litchfield
Emma Amelia Hill 38
William Jns Fenil Hill 7
Jane Hill 5
George Berty Hill 3
Will Frederick Rowland Hill 1
(not "Will Frederick" -- someone started to write Will... and crossed it out)


They married

Marriages Sep 1863
Hill John Rowland St George.S. 1d 168
Jones Emma Amelia St George S. 1d 168


He was a widower; 1861 in Newington St Mary:

John Hill 35 - shoemaker - says born Walworth, but he was a lodger ...
Mary Hill 17
Sarah Hill 15


He had daughters galore who could have had a son FW in 1886, but in particular Jane who was 15 in 1881, and had brothers Frederick and William. And might have had a close friend Ernest. It seems more likely that the Fred in the 1891 household was a grandson than a nephew (and ditto Charlotte called daughter).


I now have a big fat furry feral cat, no longer a kitten , trying to eat my fingers, so I shall leave off this headbanging. ;)


edit ... nah, of course I couldn't.

Jane Hill and brother George Berty Hill married at the same time, I think:

Marriages Mar 1891
GILLIAN George William St Saviour Southwark 1d 97
Hill George Bertie St. Saviour 1d 97
Hill Jane St. Saviour 1d 97
Rose Jessie St. Saviour 1d 97


1891

Name: Jane Gillian
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1866
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: George W Gillian - butcher - born c1867
Gender: Female
Where born: Walworth, London, England

Civil parish: St George The Martyr

no kids as of then. Oh of course, they're living next door to George B Hill, next door to the John R Hill household with the young Fred, in 1891.

Deaths Jun 1931
Gillian George W 64 Southwark 1d 11
Deaths Dec 1916
Gillian Jane 50 Southwark 1d 58

Nowhere to be found in 1901 or 1911. A pair of Gillians travelled to the US in 1891 ... Two Gillian births in St Saviour in the 1890s, but they're not in 1901 either ...

Yes they are. As Anderson.

Births Dec 1893
Gillian Edith Anderson St. Saviour 1d 81
Births Jun 1895
Gillian Lilian Maud St. Saviour 1d 88

George W Anderson 34 - born Suffolk - butcher
Jane Anderson 35 - born Newington
Beatrice Anderson 9
Edith Anderson 7
Lilian Anderson 6

On Chatham Street, the same as the 1891 address for the three Hill households.


Okay, these people are just weird enough that I would not rule them out. :-D


Except I've found him in 1901.

I'm back ...

George Bertie Hill 32
Jessie Hill 37
George Rowland Hill 6
Emma Amelia Hill 69
Frederick Chas Hill 19 - nephew - Newington c1892 - carpenter's labourer
-- also on Chatham St, along with household of Frederick Rowland Hill next door.


So he likely is Jane's son (or son of one of the older sisters).

But not looking like a good candidate.

Births Sep 1883
Hill Frederick Charles St. Saviour 1d 107
Births Dec 1883
HILL Frederick Charles St. Saviour 1d 170


Good story, though. We should take on the Gillians just for lack of any other interesting name-shifters. :-D

Births Mar 1867
Gillian George William Risbridge 4a 432

I jest.

Who is Frederick's mother. Is it Harriet Hill aged 60. Frederick is brother in law to William which means Beatrice is his sister.

If he is 17 he was born in 1884. But that could be wrong and he might have been younger.

If he was 17-19 and his mother (Harriet) was 60 she might well have died.

But 19 is a bit old to describe as "orphaned early". Now I have to find a marriage between Ernest Hill and Harriet about 17-19 years earlier.

This is just too difficult!!!!

I'll add the Frederick William Hill 1911 housepainter in Hammersmith bit here.


In 1901, we have, in Hammersmith, Fulham reg dist, all born in Hammersmith:

William O Stevers 23 - Stevens, of course - paper hanger
Beatrice M Stevers 21
Beatrice M Stevers 3
William O Stevers 1
Frederick E Stivers 2 8 Months
Harriet Hill 60 - mother in law - washerwoman
>> Frederick W Hill 19 - brother in law - painter's labourer - it says *17*, not 19


Births Mar 1884
HILL Frederick William Fulham 1a 214


I think this is most likely the 1911 Frederick you are looking at:

HILL FREDERICK WILLIAM 1887 24 Fulham
- single, house painter, born Hammersmith, living Hammersmith, alone in household

even though the age is out.

Maybe see whether Beatrice is anywhere nearby in 1911?

STEVENS BEATRICE 1880 31 Fulham

and check out the other Frederick the same age:

HILL FREDERICK 1887 24 Fulham


1891 in Hammersmith

Charles Hill 54 - Corr Shoe Braker??
(um, duh, it's Boot + Shoe Maker)
Harriett Hill 49
Lucy Hill 20
Beatrice Hill 11 (Stevens in 1891)
Frederick Hill 7



Don't be putting *too* much weight on things he said.

Remember, my Ernest Hill said his father was Francis Monck, cook; his sister Ada Hill said her father was Francis Monck, gentleman, and the father was actually Francis Hill, bankrupt stockbroker, and deceased. ;) (And they both knew it.)

The name "Ernest" could have come from anywhere -- since he was orphaned early, he might not have known his father's name either. I guess "orphaned early" means "motherless early", but we don't know, and we don't know whether it's true either way.

Started to read thread again. Found the post on 28 Feb 2010. About Frederick Hull with a father Ernest. Wonder if I followed that up. Oh strewth I will have to read the whole thread again.

Not now need to go to work.

Oh heavens it is going to take ages to trawl through all of this.

The puzzle is each time I try to match Frederick with a batch of parents I have to remember that he always wrote, "orphaned early, no parents" on forms and certificates he had to complete.

I can not see him having brothers and sisters because he would have put one of those as his next of kin.

Having said that and having learned that things are not always what they seem to be. I keep wondering if, because he was in Australia, he did not consider putting UK relatives as his NoK because of the distance involved.

I have no idea if he contacted any relatives (if he had any to contact) while he was in hospital in WW1 in the UK.

I was prepared to accept Frederick the housepainter in 1911 as him, but as Janey has found Charles Hill was the father of Frederick Hill. My Frederick Hill put his father's name as Ernest William Hill (occupation clerk).

There is one other interesting point I have discovered. The lady who waited for FW to return to Australia in December 1917 and wrote to the authorities when he did not, lived at 39 Raphael Street Abbotsford. The address on the1919 marriage certificate for FW and his spouse is 111 Turner Street Abbotsford. Now isn't that interesting. Even more interesting when I know the woman came from the Bendigo area which is a couple of hundred miles away.

Another point to mention is the name of the children of this marriage and forgive me if I have already posted this. There were two daughters, Ivy Winifred and Dorothy Evelyn, from the marriage. FWs spouse was a widow and the children from her previous marriage all had names which reflected her German heritage.
I wonder if the names of FW daughters came from his family. But they can't can they because he did not know the name of his mother.

Edit. Just google mappped the addresses. 1.3 km apart, walking distance!!!!

Interesting!! Can not find the family in 1901. Older children may have left home but Fred and Maud should still be with parents.

Edit. Think this might be them. Charles should be 44 and not 4.

Household Members: Name Age
Wm Sanders 29
Emily Sanders 26
Wm Sanders 5
John Sanders 3
Frederick Sanders 2
Mary Sanders 21
Chas Hill 4
Sarah C Hill 43
Chas Hill 21
Roland Hill 16
Frederick Hill 14
Maud Hill 11
Daisy Hill 7
John W Hill 6 months

Well that does not seem like a family whose parents "died early". This Frederick was 14 and his parents were still alive.

Hi FBG. Welcome to the dirty fingernail brigade. I am painting daughter's house. She is renovating it prior to selling. Doing all the work herself with some help from Mum and Dad Renovations Pty Ltd.

Back to my Hills which are appear to the alive with the sound of painting in 1891.

Household Members: Name Age 1891 Census.
Charles Hill 33
Sarah C Hill 33
Charles J Hill 12
Herbert J Hill 13
Roland H Hill 7
>>>Fredk Hill 5
Maud F Hill 1
John Pardy 32
Laura Pardy 31
Rose Pardy 2

Surrounded by painters Janey,no escaping us.)

I have been doing weeks of it Aunty,still havent started the kitchen and bathroom.

I promise myself I will start on monday.

And our weather is now back to Welsh weather.
Rainy and chilly

Oh that it was that lovely and warm over here. I hate this cold and our cold is no where near as bad as yours.

I will never complain about the warm weather again.

Am now off to find when and where this Charles and his wife died. Then I am off to spend the day painting, again.

Clearly it's in the blood. ;)

I have some I need to do too ... when it stops being 45C with the humidex here ...

Hi Janey. Thank you. It sort of makes sense that I do that doesn't it. And the other thought is the one for which I already have a certificate. Posted at 28 May above.

>>>>Father Charles Hill
Mother Sarah Caroline Hill, formerly Revell.
Fathers occupation: house painter.
Birth registered by mother on 28th July 1886.

The ocupation could have continued with the son. His letters to the authorities requesting assistance in Australia and being told the materials he was requesting were "more for the occupation of a house painter than a signwriter".

Sorry not to have replied sooner, I have been house painting.

Welllll .... I do believe in tracking every possibility for ruling out purposes, even if only for that.

If you can track the FW Hill whose demise is in question it would be worth it for that. For instance, would his marriage and children's births overlap when you know yours was married, that sort of thing.

Unless you try to rule him out, you can't know whether to consider ruling him in! ;)

Just received my second lot of responses from GRO. They have now searched between 1886 and 1901 and have been unable to find a birth for Frederick William Hill with a father Ernest between those dates.

I am considering my next options. Search for William Frederick, father Ernest??? Or search for other combinations of those names.

At the other end of the life of FW Hill I have been unable to find his death. This would have been in Australia. There is one death which did not match any of his "known" information. It also gave details of his family in Australia. Is it worth tracking that very small clue. Working on the possibility that he might have been telling stories, all his life, about being born in the UK.

The other option of course is to forget the whole thing and put it down to one of those relatives who will never be discovered. A bit of a bummer when it is the grandfather.

Please do not go searching for info on this man for me. Trust me there is nothing the GRO has that has not been looked at. Of course if you are related to an FW Hill with the background detailed in this thread, you will contact me, please!!

The second of these certificates.

Sep 1886
Hill Frederick William…….. Wandsworth London…….. 1d 705
Frederick William Hill
Born 7 Jul 1886
42 Wandsworth Bridge Road, Wandsworth, Surrey
Father Charles Hill
Mother Sarah Caroline Hill, formerly Revell.
Fathers occupation: house painter.
Birth registered by mother on 28th July 1886.


I have sent GRO an email outlining my dilemma and requested their advice on whether they could help to narrow down the search field. I will wait for their reply before I order the next two certificates.

Oh Botheration. Been very dumb. If I have the baptism info I do not need the birth certificate. All the info on the birth certificate is recorded on the baptism if it is in the London area. Have just wasted a certificate.

Hill Frederick William…….. Lambeth London…….. 1d 531

Name: Frederick William Hill
Record Type: Baptism and birth certificate
Date: 16 Jun 1889 birth 20 May 1889
Father's Name: Alfred Horace Hill
Mother's Name: Jane Hill formerly Harper
Parish: St Andrew, Stockwell Green
Borough: Lambeth
County: Middlesex
Address 16 Neeldon St Stockwell
Father's occupation: Compositor