Find Ancestors

Was advised to contact the Aust Department of Veterans Affairs and see if they have a repatriation file on FW Hill. They have replied and there is a file. I have requested access and have my fingers crossed it might contain his death details at least.

Hi Iki, I have four birth cets for Frederick William Hill. district Kensington, Lambeth, Wandsworth, Mile End Old Town.

I have also found an interesting newspaper article from 1912 about a Frederick H. Hill who disappeared from Tasmania. There are a couple of facts which link my FW Hill, to that FW Hill.

I think I am going to have to draw up a paper log of all my facts, choose the most accurate pieces of information, link it together with all my known sources and hope I have a relevant history of the man.

Let me know the details of your Frederick Hill. Just full name, date of birth, so I can remove him from my list of suspects.

Found this so interesting as my grand farther came from shorditch and was frederick hill

So I won't lose it.

Newspaper report Tuesday 29 May 1928 South Australia
FIRE AT HINDMARSH. Early on Monday morning, the Hindmarsh Fire Brigade received a call to the premises of Mr. Frederick Hill, painter and signwriter of Adam street, where a shed had caught alight. A quantity of paint and enamel valued at £80 was destroyed.

So do we have two possibilities.

The Lilly Hill household with Frederick Arthur Robert Hill born in Stepney.

Commercial Correspondent CC sound like a clerk unless it is census collector, which would definitely be clerky work. It might be why he was away from home.

Ernest Fisher/Frederick with names which could match but no Frederick.

We have looked at all Frederick William Hill births in the time span without finding an Ernest Hill.

In the Lilly household the father's name is not Ernest but there are no siblings. Arthur is Mrs Lilly Hill's brother in law, brother of Frederick Hill.

So lets see when Frederick Robert Hill CC died.

This is the 1901 Lily Hill household, in 1891 in Mile End Old Town:

Frederick Robb (Robt) Hill 27 - born Deptford >> "Commercial Correspondent CC"
Lily Hill 25 - born Knightsbridge
Fredk Arthur Robt Hill 10/12 - born Stepney

I'm not seeing Fred Sr in 1901. ... Yes, I think this is him:

Name: Frederick Hill
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Relation: Son -- shown as unmarried
Parent's Name: Martha Hill -- brother Arthur also in household
Where born: London, England
Occupation: Collector (again says CC after)
Civil parish: Clerkenwell

(He is with parents Robert and Martha and brother Robert, Frederick, Arthur in Clerkenwell in 1881.) So he seems to be an absent father.



The bookseller's assistant guy: Ernest *Fisher* Hill. Ahhh. That explains the James "Esther" on the marriage record, and the "Fishes" in the 1911. Except the marriage calls him Ernest Frederick (which was why I was looking at him in the first place). Odd.

Hills - Thotts - Hobbs -- the 1891 census Choccy posted had the two children as Hills; Ancestry calls the same two children Thotts; I checked the image and they are actually Hobbs.
(If we could just get Choccy to condense those census records, delete extraneous line brakes and bumph ...)


So what Ernest Fisher/Frederick has going for him is that he was a clerk and his wife was born in Bow.

Here is food for thought


Name: Frederick A R Hill
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1890
Relation: Son
Mother's name: Lily Hill
Gender: Male
Where born: Bow, London, England

Civil parish: Croydon
Ecclesiastical parish: St Saviour
Town: Croydon
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England

Registration district: Croydon
Sub-registration district: Croydon
Household Members: Name Age
Lily Hill 33
Dorothy K Hill 10
Frederick A R Hill 11
Reginald S Hill 8
Ellaline M Hill 5
Winifred E Hill 6 Months

No father, birth date within limits. Older sister Dorothy and younger sister Winifred which were names used by FW for his children.

Thinking posts - working on it.

Janey's post......

Name: Ernest F Hill
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Lodger
> Occupation -- bookseller's assistant
Where born: Islington, London, England
Civil parish: Camberwell
Jessie Blanche (Hill) 28
Ernest (James) Hill 1



1881 Census

Name: Ernest F. Hill
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Son
Father's name: James Fisher Hill
Mother's name: Elizh. Hill
Gender: Male

Civil parish: St John Hackney
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 83 Clarence Rd
Occupation: Clerk

Registration district: Hackney
Sub-registration district: West Hackney
James Fisher Hill 46
Elizh. Hill 48
Adelaid E. Hill 22
Jas. R. Hill 21
Ernest F. Hill 18

Name: Ernest F Hill
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Date of Registration: Apr-May-Jun 1911
Age at Death: 47
Registration district: Wandsworth
Inferred County: London

I think all that is for Ernest Fisher Hill.

Name: Ernest Fisher Hill
Record Type: Burial
Estimated Death Date: abt 1911
Burial Date: 24 Jun 1911
Age: 47
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Parish or Poor Law Union: Norwood Cemetery, Norwood Road, Lambeth
Borough: Lambeth
County: London

Slowly getting my head around this lot. Very slowly. Have gone from Mum, Dad and FW, to a cast of thousands.

FW would have had to lie about his age, his mother and father, his siblings etc etc for all of the above to be true. However, I have learned from the wise old woman of Canada never to discard any diametrically opposed hypothesis. Hypothetical tends to become reality - QED.

If Ernest Frederick married Jessie Barclay in 1887 they could have been the parents of Frederick William. Yes. Therefore premarriage child is a possibility.

Fred Hills aged 3 in 1888 who were his parents? Did Alice marry a Mr Hills, if so where is he.

I am struggling with Thotts and Hobbs. How did they get into the act.


I really like Ernest Frederick Hill - bookseller's assistant, that screams "clerk" at me.

Well no *&%$ing wonder I couldn't find that one.

Per Ancestry, 1891:

Matilda Newcombe 51
Hugh F Newcombe 32
Alice Newcombe 24
Charles H Newcombe 23
Mary E Thotts 15
Fred Thotts 3


And sorry to say, but I call it HOBBS, but Mary E is more likely 5 than 15.

Births Dec 1885 ?
Hobbs Mary Eliza Wandsworth 1d 632

Don't see a birth for Fred, but that's how I do read it.

something else to think about ? can't seem to find them again after this !


1891

NEWCOMBE, Matilda Head Widow F 61 1830
London VIEW
NEWCOMBE, Hugh F Son Single M 32 1859 Gun Stocker
London VIEW
NEWCOMBE, Alice Daughter Single F 24 1867
London VIEW
NEWCOMBE, Charles H Son Single M 23 1868 Gun Stocker
London VIEW
HILLS, Mary E Granddaughter Single F 5 1886
Bow
Surrey VIEW
>>>>>>>>>>HILLS, Fred Grandson Single M 3 1888
Bow
Surrey VIEW

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RG number:
RG12 Piece:
424 Folio:
89 Page:
2

Registration District:
Wandsworth Sub District:
East Battersea Enumeration District:
24 Ecclesiastical Parish:
St Philip

Civil Parish:
Battersea Municipal Borough:
Address:
22, Queens Crescent, Battersea County:
London

I was editing that to add more stuff when we were hit by a monster thunderstorm and I shut down because I thought it was dumb anyhow. I love Firefox. I restored my windows and tabs, and there is my draft post. So I'll copy it here now, what came after the one above. I had hopes, but I fear not.

------------------

Oops, I see I did find them in 1891, about 15 months ago, despite Ancestry's best efforts ... and Jessie was born in Bow ...

Name: Ernest F Hill
Age: 28
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Lodger
> Occupation -- bookseller's assistant
Where born: Islington, London, England
Civil parish: Camberwell
Jessie Blanche (Hill) 28
Ernest (James) Hill 1


Oh, the names get better.

Ralph James Barclay seems to have married Harriott Guppy in 1841 Cardiff.
So of course his daughter married Ernest Fishes Hill!

1871

Ralph Barclay 51
Harriet Barclay 49 - born Bristol
Ralph Barclay 14
Jessy Barclay 12 - born Bromley (Bromley by Bow)
Henry Barclay 10

1861

Ralph J Barclay 41
Harriet Barclay 38
William F Barclay 16
Mary Barclay 14
Elizabeth Barclay 12
Jane Barclay 10
Louisa Barclay 8
John Barclay 6
Ralph Barclay 4
Jessy Barclay 1

Births Sep 1859
Barclay Jessie Poplar 1c 566


What I wonder, you see, is whether he was a pre-marriage child of Jessy.

Do you suppose there's the least chance that he was born Valentine Alfred William Barclay and decided to be Fred instead? ;) Nah ...

Births Dec 1883
Barclay Valentine Alfred W Poplar 1c 696
Marriages Jun 1905
Barclay Valentine Alfred W Poplar 1c 901
... and died 1955 Somerset.


Any chance he totally lied about his age?

Births Mar 1873
Barclay Frederick William H (for Hill??) Poplar 1c 702
Marriages Sep 1904
Barclay Frederick William H Tendring 4a 1273
Pattison Eva

1911
BARCLAY FREDERICK WK 1873 38 Wandsworth
wife Eva 33, kids Frederick W, Ida E, Stella L, Thomas E ... and a gazillion more up to 1926.

Eva may have died 1980 Ealing ... possible FWB death 1941 Battersea ...

Not giving up on them yet. In 1881, this is Jessy's brother William F Barclay:

William T. (F) Barclay 36
Esther S. H. Barclay 32
Florence B. Barclay 9
Frederick W. Barclay 8
Alexander G. Barclay 6
Albert E. Barclay 4
Esther A. L. Barclay 2
Minnie H. Barclay
John Barclay 26
Ralph J. Barclay 62

All joking aside. The info actually would fit except for Frederick being missing. What if there was another child before Ernest James. What if Frederick forgot his father's middle name was Frederick and not William.

What is the occupation of Ernest Frederick

If they were married in 1887 that is about the time Frederick William was born. What if FW disowned his family for some reason, or they him.

When did Ernest and Jessie die.

And if it is the family and Dorothy was born in 1899, before FW came to Australia when FW was about 12.......... Did FW name his daughter Dorothy after his sister.

If Ernest's occupation is anything to do with office work, clerking, etc!!!!!!!!!
Yes that is a point, we keep looking for house painters and signwriters as FW father. On his marriage cert Ernest's occupation is listed as "clerk".

AuntyS, I will delete this whole post after, but I just had to show you my findings.

I was poking in the London marriages.

Name: Ernest Frederick Hill
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Spouse Name: Jessie Blanch Bardey
Spouse Age: 25
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 21 Aug 1887
Parish: St Philip
County: Surrey
Borough: Lambeth
Father Name: James Esther Hill
Spouse Father Name: Ralph Barclay

Interesting, I thought, given the name and timing.

Marriages Sep 1887
BARDAY Jessie Blanche Lambeth 1d 612
HILL Ernest Frederick Lambeth 1d 612

No sign in 1891, checked 1911 -- now tell me these people don't fit right into your tree!

HILL ERNEST FISHES 1864 47 Wandsworth London
HILL TERRIE BLANCHI 1864 47
HILL ERNEST JAMES FICTOR 1890 21
HILL ALMA ELIZABETH 1892 19
HILL JERRIE MAY 1894 17
HILL DOROTHY ETTY 1899 12

Ernest Fishes with wife Terrie Blanchi and daughter Jerrie May. From Oklahoma, perhaps. :-D


Oops, I see I did find them in 1891, about 15 months ago, despite Ancestry's best efforts ... and Jessie was born in Bow ...

Adelaide May Elizabeth Emma Hill, Alice Elizabeth Hill, Alice Maria Hill, Charlotte Margaret Hill, Edith Mary Hill, Eleanor Emma Hill, Emily Eliza Hill, Frederick Hill, Henry Thomas Hill, Joseph Hill, Joseph Benjamin Hill, Kate Hill, Rosa Clara Hill, Sarah Hill, William George Hill

This lot from St Peter, London Docks, Wapping.
Not time to search now for information for later.



St Peter, Limehouse

Adelaide May Elizabeth Emma Hill, Alice Elizabeth Hill, Alice Maria Hill, Charlotte Margaret Hill, Edith Mary Hill, Eleanor Emma Hill, Emily Eliza Hill, Frederick Hill, Henry Thomas Hill, Joseph Hill, Joseph Benjamin Hill, Kate Hill, Rosa Clara Hill, Sarah Hill, William George Hill

Googled Parish Registers Bow. Came up with the Docklands Ancestors site with which I am very familiar through other searches.

Went through the registers and came up with St James Ratcliffe 1840 to 1913 with the following names available.

Albert Edward Hill, Albert Leicester Hill, Charlotte Hill, Charlotte Adeline Hill, Frederick William Hill, Gladys Matilda Hill, Harriett Alice Hill, John William Hill, Margaret Jane Hill, Sarah George Hill

Would have been lovely if Ernest had turned up as well.

Looking to see where Ratcliffe is in relation to Bow.

Hmm Walking distance. Ratcliffe is the Poplar area. Do we have a birth in the Poplar area

Never seen the place name Bow on any documentation before. It has always been London.

Bother I need to go to sleep. I wish they would turn the world around so I am in the same time zone as you lot. Heavy workload today and I am so weary. Zzzzzzzzzzzzz.!!!

Be back after I have a nap.

Well I don't subscribe for that stuff -- all the back-and-forthing on the Orontes has been in the thread, I think -- why didn't anybody ever catch the Bow before, I ask?!

Bow, of course, is where Ernest Augustus Hill/Monck was having his children in the 1880s. One, anyhow: that's the place of birth given for son Ernest Ross Monck, born April 1884, on his WWI CEF attestation paper -- the birth that has never been found.

You know, I'm not going to rule you out yet, maybe-cousin. ;)

http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/poplar.html

parish Bow, county Middlesex, 1837-1889



Would you like this one, or shall I have him? Your Fred could certainly have had an older brother Ernest.

Births Jun 1884
Hill Ernest Oscar Poplar 1c 637

No further trace of an Ernest Oscar Hill or likely Ernest O Hill. Mine is Monck in 1901, born Bow. Hmmmm!

The only other Ernest Hill born in Poplar around then was Q3 1884, died same quarter.

So the one visiting the Tubbs in Berkshire in 1891 ... could be Ernest Oscar.


(edit - I'm thinking he might be interesting as a possible bro of Fred because he isn't with his family ... and I can't find him later ...)

this one also says 'born BOW' on original - looks like he was a permanent crew member on the 'Orontes'


New South Wales, Australia, Unassisted Immigrant Passenger Lists, 1826-1922

Name: F Hill
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1887
Age: 28
Port of Departure: Brisbane
Port of Arrival: Sydney, New South Wales
Voyage Arrival Date: 26 Jul 1915
Vessel Name: Orontes

Typed this bit and then GR decided to do maintenance so I've lost it.

FW Hill's spouse was widowed in 1917. Found out tonight, how. Her husband decided to shoot their 13 year old son, the gun misfired, the boy ran outside and his father shot himself.

Oh sometimes this family history stuff packs quite a wallop!!