Find Ancestors

hi i need some help im trying to find my nans family her name is joyce harrison and her parents are herbert harrison? and ethel? year of birth at a guess 1885 i do know he was married twice and there were children from both marriges but that all i know
can anyone help ?
thanks claire

I'll bet you know who she married. ;)

If we find her marriage, that's somewhere to start.

Also, you need to tell us a place. England, for starters? Whereabouts?


There may be information in the censuses that will help. But with common names, we need to know where to look.


http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl

Searching for a marriage of a Herbert Harrison + Ethel, the first one is in 1895. I don't think Ethel was really a name in common use before when someone married then was born.

joyce harrison married williamfaxon and they are in the yorkshire area somewhere
thanks claire

William Faxon?

Ah, searching for him alone found the marriage -- fortunately it's a rare name!

Marriages Mar 1944
FAXON William Harrison Sheffield 9c 906
HARRISON Joyce *Fascon* Sheffield 9c 906


That's very late for someone born 1885ish to marry ...

You need to get her marriage certificate. It will give you her age and her father's name.

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

Is she still living? I don't see a death (or remarriage) for her up to 2005.

What about William? Do you know when and where he died, if he is deceased?

The death record gives a person's age at death.


Since the marriage was in Sheffield --

Name: William Faxon
Birth Date: 19 Jan 1910
Death Registration Month/Year: Dec 1984
Age at death (estimated): 74
Registration district: Sheffield
Inferred County: Yorkshire
Volume: 3
Page: 1724

?


They had children 1944-1952 in Sheffield.

I don't think she was born 1885ish.

!!

Claire, you know perfectly well that William Faxon was born in 1910 -- he is in your tree.

Was your first message supposed to mean that someone ELSE was born in 1885?

I've compared every Herbert Harrison + Ethel marriage in Yorkshire to every Joyce Harrison birth in Yorkshire 1911 onward, and none of the births matches any of the marriages.

So you will need to start with Joyce's marriage certificate. Or maybe you already know her date and place of birth and haven't bothered to mention ... because her birth certificate will tell you her parents' names, and that is what you need for finding more about them.

Who was born 1885? Herbert or Ethel or are you guessing? Janey, I don't think she meant that Joyce was born 1885.

I think what Janey's trying to say is that it would have helped if you had told us that you knew (or thought) what William Faxon was born in 1910. So presumably Joyce Harrison was born around the same time.

You have a question mark against the name of her father Herbert Harrison. Does this mean that you haven't got her marriage certificate?

Janey has posted the details of that. I think you need to get it, otherwise we could be looking for a lot of wrong Harrisons. We need all the details from it, as it is post 1911.

Come back to us when you have got it, cos whatever research we do now is only guesswork.

There are four marriages of a Herbert Harrison to an Ethel in Yorkshire between 1900 and 1910. No way of telling which is yours.

I assume that you don't have the birth cert of Joyce Harrison. Do you know if she was born before 1911 or after, and do you know if she had any siblings? And also, if they were born in Sheffield.

MM -- that's what I said I'd done. Assuming that since the marriage was in 1944 and Faxon was born 1910, Joyce was born 1911 or later, I took the wife's surname from every one of the Herbert Harrison + Ethel marriages in Yorkshire and searched for a Joyce Harrison with that mother's surname. No dice.

hi sorry i think herbert and ethel may have been born about 1885 i now live in australia and dont have any contact wiith my family so i dont have all the details from memory i think my nan joyce is now about 87 years old if this helps
thanks claire

the following i am told are all brothers and sisters or stepbrothers and stepsisters of joyce
wilfred
jean
ernest
marie
david
alan
grace
brian
alice
jack
ruth
i dont know any more about these people other than what is here
thanks claire

There are all these children with the same mmn:

Births Dec 1918 (98%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Harrison John E Linley Worksop 7b 69

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Births Jun 1920 (>99%)
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Harrison Grace Linley Worksop 7b 180

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Births Sep 1922 (>99%)
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Harrison Joyce Linley Worksop 7b 76

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Births Dec 1924 (>99%)
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Harrison Lilian Linley Worksop 7b 78

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Births Mar 1927 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Harrison Alice Linley Worksop 7b 84

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Jun 1929 (>99%)
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Harrison Wilfred Linley Worksop 7b 84

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Births Mar 1931 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Harrison Ernest R Linley Worksop 7b 86

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Dec 1932 (98%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Harrison Ruth Linley Worksop 7b 70

And:


Births Sep 1935 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Harrison Marie Linley Rotherham 9c 939

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Births Jun 1937 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Harrison George Linley Rotherham 9c 975

England & Wales, Birth Index: 1916-2005
about Alan Harrison
Name: Alan Harrison
Mother's Maiden Surname: Linley
Date of Registration: Apr May Jun 1944
Registration district: Rother V
Registration county: Yorkshire
Volume Number: 9c
Page Number: 1370 (click to see others on page)

England & Wales, Birth Index: 1916-2005
about David Harrison
Name: David Harrison
Mother's Maiden Surname: Linley
Date of Registration: Oct Nov Dec 1938
Registration district: Rotherham
Registration county: Yorkshire
Volume Number: 9c
Page Number: 884 (click to see others on page)

So I'm just missing Brian and Jean.

And here's a marriage, not of Herbert and Ethel:

Marriages Jun 1920 (83%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Harrison Sidney Linley Rotherham 9c 1923
Linley Nellie Harrison Rotherham 9c 1923

I'd been fixing to say that I thought Joyce was probably a fair bit younger than we were assuming, given the date of her marriage and children's births, so Herbert and Ethel? may well have been younger as well.

Claire, you gotta start with Joyce's marriage certificate to confirm her father's name.

If it's Sidney, then you're on your way.


MM, we're getting up into probably living people with some of those births there -- in fact, as I understand it, Joyce herself is still living? So some of this is a bit touchy ...

Given that at least one birth is before the date of the marriage, it would seem that Sidney or Nellie had been married before and wasn't free to marry until 1920, perhaps.

The Harrison-Linley marriage certificate will give his age (and father's name), which would be a guide for more searching.



edit >>> Look what I found.

Marriages Dec 1926
Harrison Herbert Linley Worksop 7b 117
Linley Ethel M Harrison Worksop 7b 117

Possibly a very short-lived first marriage? --

Marriages Jun 1918
Coupe Gertrude F Harrison Worksop 7b 77
Harrison Herbert Coupe Worksop 7b 77

There seem to be no children of that marriage.

This might be the first wife's death, leaving Herbert free to remarry later the same year.

Name: Gertrude F Harrison
Death Registration Month/Year: 1926 (first quarter)
Age at death (estimated): 34
Registration district: Sheffield
Inferred County: Yorkshire West Riding
Volume: 9c
Page: 570


edit again >>> oh my.

Marriages Mar 1910
? COUPE James William Worksop 7b 65
Dakin Sam Thomas W W Worksop 7b 65
HODGKISS Harriett Worksop 7b 65
? Linley Gertrude Fanny Worksop 7b 65


Gertrude F Coupe was born Linley? Presumably she was widowed (WWI?) and then married Herbert Harrison.

So in fact, there's a good chance that all of the Harrison-Linley children up to 1926 were Gertrude's children, and when Gertrude died, Sidney (who had a lot of young children) then married her sister?


Births Mar 1914
COUPE Cissie Linley Worksop 7b 128


Yup!

Name: COUPE, JAMES WILLIAM
Initials: J W
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Machine Gun Corps (Infantry)
Unit Text: 50th Coy.
Age: 28
Date of Death: 02/03/1916
Service No: 6156
Additional information:
Son of William Coupe, of Bondhay Cottages, Whitwell, Derbyshire;
>>> husband of Gertrude Fanny Harrison (formerly Coupe), of Fir Vale. Harthill, Sheffield.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 56.
Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=1608049

By the time the memorial was written, Gertrude was married to Herbert Harrison and living in Sheffield, which is where she died in 1926.

Births Jun 1891
Linley Gertrude Fanny Doncaster 9c 849

Births Dec 1907
LINLEY Ethel May Worksop 7b 57


1911

COUPE GERTRUDE 1892 19 Worksop Nottinghamshire
COUPE WILLIAM 1888 23
LINLEY WILLIAM COUPE 1910 1


I'm not finding Ethel.



edit -- I'm waiting breathelessly for Claire to have a look -- if you find it hard to follow at all, just say and we can give the abridged version. ;)

Some certificates are still needed before delving farther back into the past, just to make sure you're on the right track, and we can advise about the most economical way to do that.

I need a chill pill, which is what I am told is the modern equivalent of cannabis or similar.

It took me about three hours to find all those kids in Worksop, like it does.

I thought I had it sussed and then Janey Canuck comes along with an alternative, and, as usual, sorts it all out.

I am gobsmacked.

Janey, please do a summary - for me.

I'll get in touch with Claire.

Margaret

Yeah, Janey, sorry about the living people, but I got carried away, and it seemed to fit the bill. Difficult to know how cautious to be when it's all available online anyway.

Well!

Gertrude Fanny Linley was born 1891 in Doncaster.
Ethel May Linley was born 1907 in Worksop.

I can't find Gertrude in the 1901 census.
I can't find Ethel in the 1911 census.

By 1911, Gertrude was married to James William Coupe and living with him and their son (born before they were married).

So we can't look for Ethel and Gertrude together in 1901 (Ethel wasn't born) or in 1911 (Gertrude was married).

Gertrude had one more child with James William Coupe -- Cissie, in 1914. She married in 1938. Son William Coupe Linley was born in 1909, but I don't find him dying or marrying under that name. Perhaps he adopted Coupe, or Harrison?

James William Coupe was killed in WWI, in early 1916.

Gertrude Fanny Linley Coupe married Herbert Harrison in 1918.

I will assume that all the children born before Gertrude died were her children with Herbert:

Births Dec 1918
Harrison John E Linley Worksop 7b 69
Births Jun 1920
Harrison Grace Linley Worksop 7b 180
Births Sep 1922
Harrison Joyce Linley Worksop 7b 76
Births Dec 1924
Harrison Lilian Linley Worksop 7b 78

Gertrude died in early 1926.

Herbert Harrison married Ethel May Linley in late 1926.

The children born after that would be Ethel's children. (I won't repeat their details, particularly since I'm concerned that they may still be living -- we should delete some of this once Claire has it all recorded.)

Was Ethel a younger sister of Gertrude? Or a cousin? It's even possible she was a daughter -- more than 16 years between them.

We know nothing yet about Herbert Harrison.


Since we pretty clearly have the right family -- the children Madmeg found match Claire's names, and the marriage I found matches Claire's names -- I think Claire should order

- the Herbert Harrison + Gertrude Coupe marriage certificate
- the Herbert Harrison + Ethel Linley marriage certificate

This will give you, about Herbert:
- his age at the times of the marriages
- his father's name
and with this his family can be traced back.

And for Ethel and Gertrude, it will give you the same information, and should explain what their relationship was, or wasn't -- depending on whether they had the same father -- and hopefully make it possible to find their family/families too.


How's that then? ;)

I'm waiting breathlessly for you to put all that into plain Canadian for me. I can't cope!

I beat you with it, by seconds. ;)

I'm wondering whether the question is: Does Claire want to trace living family in England? There were a lot of kids, so there may be a lot of cousins!

As a matter of fact, just for starters, two people have Cissie Coupe 1914 in their trees here at GR.