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I am trying to find john drummond married to ann martin married in scotland ann martins father was john martin
ann died 1917 again in scotland

Have you looked on Scotlandspeople for the marriage cert - pay to view site

Found Ann's death

1917 DRUMMOND ANN MARTIN F 52 RATTRAY /PERTH

but can't find a marriage so far.......
death cert is signed by Cecilia Drummond (daughter)......so far haven't traced a birth for Cecilia....there are several but none have the correct parents

Hi there

Thanks for that i have been looking there great site but there are so many its just going to take a while i think but thanks again
cheers
Dot

Hi Ailleen

Thanks for helping i have now found the birth for cecilia and her marriage but still cant find marriage for ann and john yet but i will keep looking thanks again for your time .
cheers
Dot

Where was Cecelia born please? I guess it wasn't Scotland as her birth certificate would give the date and place of her parents' marriage.

Hi there

cecilla was born in scotland but it only has her mother as ann drummond unless i have the wrong one will check again to make sure

cheers
dot

I don't think that you have the wrong birth for Cecilia - it may be that her paretn's didn't marry. In the first column of her birth certificate were there any notes. I am wondering if there was an RCE (Register of Corrected Entries) for her paternity. Can you give us all the details from her birth certificate please? It may help us to find Ann on the census records.

If the birth you have is for Dundee then this is the 1901 census return

Name: Cecilia Drummond
Age: 5
Estimated birth year: abt 1896
Relationship: Inmate
Gender: Female
Where born: Dundee, Forfarshire
Registration Number: 282/4
Registration district: St Andrew
Civil parish: St Andrew
County: Angus
Address: Maryfield Dundee
ED: East Poorhouse and Hospital
Household schedule number: 1
Line: 10
Roll: CSSCT1901_103
Household Members:
Name Age
Mary Sword 36
Jerme Sword 11
Bridget Kennedy 35
Mary Ann Kennedy 6
Ann Drummond 32
George Drummond 13
John Drummond 8
Cecilia Drummond 5

? same Ann Drummond 1891

Name: Ann Drummond
Age: 23
Estimated birth year: abt 1868
Relationship: Daur (Daughter)
Mother's Name: Cath
Gender: Female
Where born: Dundee, Forfarsh
Registration Number: 282/2
Registration district: St Mary
Civil parish: Liff and Benvie
Town: Dundee
County: Angus
Address: 43 Larch St
Occupation: Jute Spinner
ED: 19
Household schedule number: 135
Line: 12
Roll: CSSCT1891_90
Household Members:
Name Age
Cath Drummond 60
Ann Drummond 23
George Drummond 3

1871

Name: Ann Drummond
Age: 6
Estimated birth year: abt 1865
Relationship: Daughter
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Catherin
Gender: Female
Where born: Dundee, Forfarshire
Registration Number: 282/2
Registration district: St Mary
Civil parish: Dundee
County: Angus
Address: Dudhope Crescent Land 18
ED: 5
Household schedule number: 196
Line: 24
Roll: CSSCT1871_50
Household Members:
Name Age
John Drummond 44
Catherin Drummond 44
Catherine Drummond 26
Jannet Drummond 23
Mary Drummond 20
Cecilia Drummond 14
John Drummond 11
Ann Drummond 6
Agnes Drummond 4
James Joyce 3

hi there thanks for your help you are better than i am

i have found death of ann drummond outworker widow of john drummond coal merchant died 1917 march age 52 rattray but still cant find john drummond birth marriage or death
i have found a census for 1891 cath drummond widow age 60 ann drummond 23 george age 3
also sensus for 1901 ann drummond 32 george 13 john 8 and cecilia 3 i think but it hard to read
do you think you could help a bit more
thanks again dot

There were no marriages that I can find in Scotland or England for John Drummond and Ann(e) Martin.

This 1901 census with Ann and her children in the poorhouse?

Name: Cecilia Drummond
Age: 5
Estimated birth year: abt 1896
Relationship: Inmate
Gender: Female
Where born: Dundee, Forfarshire
Registration Number: 282/4
Registration district: St Andrew
Civil parish: St Andrew
County: Angus
Address: Maryfield Dundee
ED: East Poorhouse and Hospital
Household schedule number: 1
Line: 10
Roll: CSSCT1901_103


EDIT

It would have been best to keep all this family to one thread.

If the birth you have found for Cecilia (on the other thread) is correct, then it looks like she was illegitimate. So where does the name Martin come in please? Are you working back from Cecilia's marriage certificate please? If that is the case the John Drummond, father may in fact be her grandfather's name to save face.

Have you found Ann's birth? Could Martin have been her middle name rather than her maiden surname?

Was there an RCE on Cecilia's birth entry please?

Who was the informant on the death that you have for Ann please?

You could contact Angus Archives to find out if the poor relief records have survived as this may give you more information as Ann would have applied for poor relief to gain entry to the Poorhouse. I am not sure how helpful that will be as she may not have been completely honest about her status on her application. It was usual, though, if an applicant stated that they were widowed then this would be checked out. They often had to give the date and place of their marriage and details of their in-laws.

Hi,

Looking at the death for Ann Drummond in column one she is described as Ann Drummond, Outworker (widow of John Drummond Coal Merchant) Found dead in her house on March 15th 1917. Her father is given as John Martin, Millworker (deceased) No mother's details are given. The death was registered by her daughter Cecelia Drummond.

There is an RCE for this and the correction gives her as ;

Ann Martin or Drummond, 52 years female.

No reference given to her being a widow, so maybe she wa\s born Martin but assumed the name Drummond, even for the registration of her daughter Cecelia where she gives her name as Ann Drummond but no fathers details.

I will see if I can find the death of her "husband John Drummond and her birth.

Tom

Yes Flick, I noticed the other thread had gone.

It really isn't helpful when people do that!

I had posted on it this morning as Dot said she had found a birth for Cecelia which just gave her mother's name and no father. I had posted to ask her if there was an RCE on the entry relating to paternity.


EDIT

Tom can you please tell us if Cecelia's birth entry has an RCE. I think at the moment it looks like Ann was never actually married and that her daughter just thought that her maiden surname was Martin but until we find her on a census as Martin, I think that needs to stay on the back burner.

The Ann Drummond that has been found on earlier census records has a father John Drummond, a mill overseer!

rootgatherer

there is no RCE attached to Cecilia's birth record

Hi RG, sorry for the delay I was busy registering some births, and then doing some searches.but I am back.

There is no RCE for the birth of Ceilia Drummond. She is stated to be illegit and no father is on the b/c. Her mother is given as Ann Drummond and there is no date of marriage.

I looked up the births of the two other children withh Ann in the poorhouse on the 1901 census to see if there was a marriage or father's details.

George Grant Drummond (Illegit) born 07/01/1888 Dundee. No father given, mother is Ann Drummond Jute Spinner, No marriage details given.
John Burke (Illegit) born 21/04/1893 Father John Burke, General Labourer. Mother Ann Drummond, Jute Spinner. No marriage details for them.

I could not find a marriage for Ann Martin to a Drummond. I have not found the death yet of John Drummond Coal Merchant as given as Ann's husband on her death registration.

I will check the 1891 census as George willappear on that to see if there any older children listed and check for marriages for George and John for any helpful info.

It may take a while if we are busy, but I will reply

Tom.

Ann's birth record gives her mother's maiden name as Catherine Martin

1864 DRUMMOND ANN F DUNDEE SECOND DISTRICT DUNDEE CITY/ANGUS

Parent's marriage given as 25th April 1846 Tillicoutry

Thank you Aileen and Tom.

I was not really surprised. That was good of you to look at the boys births too Tom. As you say it may be interesting to see if they give a father on their marriages.

I wonder if Cecilia was just unsure of the information when she registered her mother's death.

1891 census gives

Catherine Drummond, widow aged 60 Head born Forfarshire Dundee
Ann Drummond daughter unmarried aged 23 Jute Spinner born forfarshire Dundee.
George Drummond son aged 3 born Forfarshire Dundee.

I then looked up the death for Catherine;

Catherine Drummond, widow of John Drummond, Jute Mill Overseeer.
10/01/1901 at 2 City Road Dundee aged 71.
Father James Martin, Weaver deceased
Mother Jessie Martin m.s Crichton deceased
Registered by son John Drummond.

So when Ann's death was registered Cecilia the informant gave her father as John Martin which was clearly wrong. It is now known from the above death and the 1891 census where Ann was listed as unmarried aged 23 that she was actually born Ann Drummond to Catherine and John Drummond. The confusion with Martin is also obvious as this was her mother Catherine's m.s.

I can now look for Ann's birth c 1868 with the above details.