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Hi Gillian, thank you so much for your time, think you are right and this must be the only explanation! regards Stephen

I have read through all this again and to summarise
James Colley married Sarah Burleton 14/6/1795 St marylebone
Ann Davis Colley born 1797 (bap 23/4/1797 marylebone) married William Allen
Daniel Richard Colley b 1810 married Penelope Mason in 1832
All Daniels children have Penelope as their stated mother
including Rachel (despite her being born so late Penelope was only 41 so it is quite possible she was a "late surprise")
Penelope does not appear separate from the family under Colley or any other name in the 1851 and 1841 censuses
Penelope died 1859

My reading of this would be that Penelope was her given name but she disliked it and ONLY used it for legal requirements such as her rmarriage and the childrens registration. She preferred Mary Ann and used variations of that in everday life including the census
The age and place of birth is consistent with Mary/Ann being the same person as Penelope

Just one view but it seems the most likely though you may never know for sure!

nudge

Hi Gillian, sorry for the delay, been to my mums today and viewed the certificate.........the birth was registered by penelope herself and was signed by her with an X mark

What I meant was -what does it say in column 7 for signature, description and residence of informant? Was it Penelope herself? Or Daniel?

the thing is Daniel and Penelope actually married in 1832.........oh sorry, I realise what you mean, unfortunately it does say mother penelope Colley (maiden name mason)..........but penelope would still be on 1841 +1851 census but she is not with Daniel.....if as you suggest penelope and daniel were the grandparents - penelope must have been alive at this stage for them to try to pull it off

Just a thought -who is the informant on the birth cert of Rachel? If it was Penelope -fine , we are still in the same quandary -but if it was Daniel is it possible given the big gap between her and her "siblings" that she was not in fact his daughter, but grandaughter, illegitimate child of one of his daughters but registered by him for reasons of respectability -this often happened back then

thank you Catherine for all your hardwork, I think the missing Penelope is going to remain a mystery!

Wonder if this is Ann in 1851?

Name: Ann Allen
Age: 57
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1794
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: William
Gender: Female
Where born: Marylebone, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Eltham
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street Address: Lee Green

Registration district: Lewisham
Sub-registration district: Eltham
ED, institution, or vessel: 1b
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 9
Household Members:
Name Age
William Allen 57 born: Lee, Surrey (Gardener)
Ann Allen 57
Charlotte Walkins 80 - Inmate

and in 1841
Name: Ann Allen
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1801
Gender: Female
Where born: Kent, England

Civil parish: Eltham
Hundred: Blackheath
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street Address: Lee Green

Occupation: William - Gardener

Registration district: Lewisham
Sub-registration district: Eltham
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
William Allen 48
Ann Allen 40

Just for info this is the Cooley family in 1841 so you can eliminate these children from the list.

Name: James Cooley
Age: 49
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1792
Gender: Male
Where born: Middlesex, England

Civil parish: St Marylebone
Hundred: Ossulstone (Holborn Division)
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Registration district: St Marylebone
Sub-registration district: St John
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
James Cooley 49
Sarah Cooley 41
James Cooley 26
Maria Cooley 18
Thomas Cooley 14
William Cooley 12
Jane Cooley 11
Charles Cooley 9
George Cooley 6
Henry Cooley 2

Looks like mother Sarah in 1851:-

Name: Sarah Colley
Age: 67
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1784
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Long Acre, Middlesex, England

Civil parish: Lee
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street Address: Living next door to Daniel and family

Occupation: >Laundress

Condition as to marriage: Widow

Registration district: Lewisham
Sub-registration district: Lee
ED, institution, or vessel: 1e
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 123
Household Members:
Name Age
Sarah Colley 67

and her possible in 1841:-
Name: Sarah Colley
Age: 55
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1786
Gender: Female

Civil parish: Lewisham
Hundred: Blackheath
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street Address: Lewisham Union Workhouse

Occupation: Charwoman

Registration district: Lewisham
Sub-registration district: Lewisham

as she is on her own I would think the Cooley children in the list above are a different family.

I did a wide date search on IGI and came up with this:-

Birth/Christening, 1787 - 1827, London Greater, England, British Isles
Father: James Colley, Mother: Sarah

1. HENRY COLLEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 12 OCT 1804
2. HENRY COLLEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 28 OCT 1804 Saint Anne Soho, Westminster, London, England
3. DANIEL RICHARD COLLEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 16 MAY 1810
4. DANIEL RICHARD COLLEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 07 MAY 1824 Saint Martin In The Fields, Westminster, London, England

XXX5. MARIA CATHERINE COOLEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 09 FEB 1823 Saint James, Paddington, London, England
XXX6. WILLIAM COOLEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 07 JAN 1827 Saint James, Paddington, London, England
7. STEPHEN COOLEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 20 JUN 1819 Saint James, Paddington, London, England
XXX8. THOMAS JOHN COOLEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 26 DEC 1824 Saint James, Paddington, London, England
XXX9. JAMES HENRY COOLEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 19 APR 1818 Saint James, Paddington, London, England
10. STEPHEN COOLEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 28 MAY 1819
11. STEPHEN COOLEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 14 JUN 1819 Saint Mary-St Marylebone Road, Saint Marylebone, London, England
(Mother: SARAH SHERIDAN)

12. SARA ELIZA COLLEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 21 APR 1799
13. SARA ELIZA COLLEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 19 MAY 1799 Saint Mary-St Marylebone Road, Saint Marylebone, London, England
14. ANN DAVIS COLLEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 24 FEB 1797
15. ANN DAVIS COLLEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 23 APR 1797 Saint Mary-St Marylebone Road, Saint Marylebone, London, England

XXX16. JANE ANN COOLEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 27 MAY 1821 Saint James, Paddington, London, England

so all possible siblings of Daniel, including Ann Davis Colley 1797, so date of birth fits that of Ann in 1861 census. May not all be the same family of course?

nudge......still cant get my head round this!
Penelope definately alive in 1853 as she had her daughter rachel in lewisham.......we know she married Daniel colley 1832........and looks like she died 1859.....but why is she not on the 41, 51 census

on 61 census it looks like ann allen is the sister to daniel colley and their mother is sarah colley.........can anyone find a baptism for ann + daniel colley with the same parents including mother sarah.....we have daniel richard colley born 1810 but not baptised until 1824 westminster to parents james and sarah..........can anyone tie in his sister ann?

nudge........just incase anyone else can help figure this out

I had also found the baptism for Penelope Mason 1812 Lewisham on IGI and am pretty sure thats her.........but where is she 1841, 1851??

Hang on!

William Colley - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 21 AUG 1844
Gender: Male Christening: 15 SEP 1844 Lee, Kent, England

JANE COLLEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 07 AUG 1848
Gender: Female Christening: 03 SEP 1848 Saint Margaret, Lee, Kent, England

LOUISA COLLEY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 04 OCT 1855
Gender: Female Christening: 25 NOV 1855 Saint Mary, Lewisham, Kent, England

all same parents
Father: DANIEL COLLEY
Mother: SARAH

Now that's thrown the cat among the pigeons!

Wonder if it's the same Sarah Colley that is with Rachel in 1861 census?
EDIT:- no can't be as she turned out to be the grandmother.

If this is the birth of Penelope, then that puts my theory out the window:-

PENELOPE MASON - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 10 NOV 1812
Gender: Female Christening: 06 DEC 1812 Saint Mary, Lewisham, London, England
Father: JAMES MASON
Mother: ELIZABETH

I agree Stephen, it does seem strange. Why does the name of his wife change from census to census when the children born up to 1841 are noted as having mother Penelope?
I would have said that he left Penelope and lived with other women but, you know Rachel who was born in 1853 also had mother Penelope?
Maybe Penelope had other names and changed from census to census as lots of others did.

The only way to be sure if all the children born after 1841 also have mother Penelope is to buy their birth certs.

and possible 1861 ?

Name: Daniel Colley
Age: 57
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1804
Gender: Male
Where born: Lewisham, Kent, England

Civil parish: Lewisham
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street Address:

Condition as to marriage: Widower

Registration district: Lewisham
Sub-registration district: Lewisham Village
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 106
Household Members:
Name Age
Dennis Sweeney 45
Mary Sweeney 31
John Sweeney 9
Rose E Sweeney 3
Dennis Sweeney 8 Mo
Daniel Colley 57
Emma Colley 17
William Colley 15
Louisa Colley 5

Sorry Sue, just realised you've already posted this one.
I'll leave it on though to keep everything together.

am I getting confused by the huge amount of data.....but if Penelope and Daniel married 1832 and we think penelope died 1859........how come she is not on 1841 + 1851 census?